Lowry vs Calderon - Page 3
Old 07-09-2012, 02:49 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Bosh
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:50 PM   #42 (permalink)
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This argument is exactly why Calderon needs to go before training camp to avoid controversy.

They probably could co-exist on the court,but likely not off when eventually egos may clash after thirsty fans and media trying to argue/raise the deabte over who's better. Lowry is going to need to feel like this is his team to run,especially as the new guy or the experiment and 1st round pick will be a waste.

Even if Jose is better,he's been given 5 years to run the team(which hasn't been that successful,regardless of surrounding talent),it's time for a new person to run the point. it happens in sports,teams and players go in different directions,this is needed on the Raptors moving forward.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:51 PM   #43 (permalink)
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RY

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First thing i thought
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:52 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Yes, we just gave a future 1st round draft pick for a backup PG.

Has anyone noticed where the raps were when Jose was a sub? They were much better off.
second thing i thought
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:55 PM   #45 (permalink)
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This argument is exactly why Calderon needs to go before training camp to avoid controversy.

They probably could co-exist on the court,but likely not off when eventually egos may clash after thirsty fans and media trying to argue/raise the deabte over who's better. Lowry is going to need to feel like this is his team to run,especially as the new guy or the experiment and 1st round pick will be a waste.

Even if Jose is better,he's been given 5 years to run the team(which hasn't been that successful,regardless of surrounding talent),it's time for a new person to run the point. it happens in sports,teams and players go in different directions,this is needed on the Raptors moving forward.
Exactly. Pretty much what I was saying earlier. You don't give up a lottery pick for a player unless he's clearly the number one guy. That being said jose fanboys will always bring this up. Even if some of them wanted him gone for a couple years prior to this season.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:56 PM   #46 (permalink)
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IDK who runs the point as long as they are good.

PG is not Toronto's problem
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:57 PM   #47 (permalink)
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PG is not Toronto's problem
Agreed!
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:04 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Keep Jose. Keep Lowry.

When we had the Jose/TJ contoversy. we suffered to the extent of 47 wins.

When BC resolved the controversy after the season, we started down the road to where we are now. His worst move other that signing Kapono.

Let Jose and Lowry compete with each other, tooth and nail. It will make them both better. It's life. It won't kill them. Controversy isn't a dirty word.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:11 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Yes, keep them both. We don't even know how Lowry feels about coming to Toronto.. He could easily bolt in the next 2 years when his contract his up or even demand a trade if he was REALLY the headcase Mchale made him out to be. Jose has served us great as our long time PG and I do hope he retires as a Raptor. I'm kind of hoping for Jose to lose a step next season, while Lowry makes the All Star team, so we can really keep them both in their right roles.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:21 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I don't think it would be an overstatement to suggest that Lowry and Calderon would comprise one of the strongest point guard combinations in the Eastern Conference next season.

Definitely keep Jose as the backup, let him beat up on the opposition's second unit, and don't trade him at the deadline unless the Raps are out of playoff contention and the return is reasonable.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:27 PM   #51 (permalink)
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If I were BC I would trade Jose to a contender out of respect. He doesn't want to be a backup pg on a lottery team, nor should we make him if we can get decent value.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:31 PM   #52 (permalink)
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nor should we make him if we can get decent value.
There it is. IF he has the value some here believe he shouldn't be here much longer considering our glaring need at SF. If nothing is done in that regard we'll know why.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:32 PM   #53 (permalink)
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If I were BC I would trade Jose to a contender out of respect. He doesn't want to be a backup pg on a lottery team, nor should we make him if we can get decent value.
If that's how Jose feels - fine, he deserves it. But if he is going to be happy in TO playing out the rest of his career as a veteran leader and mentor off the bench at PG, Raps should absolutely oblige. I want Ocho to be retired in TO!
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:32 PM   #54 (permalink)
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If I were BC I would trade Jose to a contender out of respect. He doesn't want to be a backup pg on a lottery team, nor should we make him if we can get decent value.
He's already getting $10 million of repect. It's a business, not a kindergarten.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:43 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Anyone who thinks there'll be a PG controversy did not pay attention to what Lowry was doing pre injury. He was working himself in to the top 7 PGs in the NBA before his injury, as he was averaging near 17 8+ and 5+ on good percentages. Houston would have made the playoffs if he didnt get injured.

The difference between Lowry and Jose primarily is Lowry can make the defence react to him, and make defences collapse, and if they play him straight up, he can get to the rim and get the opposing bigs in foul trouble and be a primary option on offence. Jose could do this for stretches 3-4 years ago, but now he's primarily a safe PG,who cant burn defences as the primary option unless they go under on screen roll and Jose can hit wide open jumpers. If you follow Jose over the screen, he cant penetrate and cause havoc like Lowry can. And Lowry can get to the rim even if you go under the screen, or pullup now as his jumper off the dribble improved a ton last year

In both the halfcourt and open court, Lowry is the much better option. And then you throw in defence and rebounding? It's not even close.

It seems that a lot of people are going to be surprised next year when Lowry is putting up 17+8 in an offence that's going to use him even more than HOU's did.

And in terms of tiers of PGs, I'd have it like this:

Tier 1- CP3, DWill, Rose, Rondo
Tier 2- Westbrook, Parker, Nash
Tier 3- Wall, Lowry, Lawson, Curry, Irving, Conley
Tier 4- Rubio, Jennings, Holiday
Tier 5- Calderon, Teague, Lin, Miller, Kidd, Dragic, I Thomas, Jack
Tier 6- Everyone else.

In tier 2, Westbrook has the highest chance of getting in to tier 1 next season, and Wall/Irving from tier 3 in to tier 2. Rubio has the highest chance to go from tier 4 all the way up to tier 2 IMO.
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Old 07-09-2012, 04:25 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Agreed Lowry isn't a stud.. but yeah his youth and aggressiveness will be very welcome.... though some anemic offensive players like Ed and Amir will suffer.
Not a stud? He looks like a stud to me.
His first two months last season were nothing short of spectacular:

January
GS:15, FG:74-193(.383), 3PT:27-72 (.375), FT:50-58(.862),6.5 reb, 7.1 apg, 1.9 steals, .266 blck/g, 15ppg
February
GS:15, FG:86-182(.473), 3PT:32-75(.427), FT:56-65(.862),3.7 reb, 6.9 apg, 1.9 steals, .333 blck/g, 17.3pg

As you can see, the first month of the season he couldn't hit the side of a barn, yet he STILL managed to stack the score sheet in so many other categories. Imagine that! That takes heart and leadership, another trait you guys aren't giving him enough credit for.
He was slowly starting to gain a swagger and confidence before the tragic derailing of his season.

Now imagine after playing the best basketball of your life, you come back and the coach is treating you like a complete bum and giving you NO respect. Zip. Zero. Never mind the heart and soul you brought to the team those first two months. How would you feel?

I'm convinced Kevin McHale has lost his mind. He was messing with the chemistry of his team after a hot start to the season swelled his head up nice and big. Martin and Dalembert were other victims of his wrath. He is on some kind of ego trip or mid-life crisis man. He's on a mission to have the tallest NBA team in history with a roster of almost all power forwards.
The average height of his team is something like 6"10 right now. That's absurd!

We absolutely STOLE Lowry from an organization that is obviously drinking the Mchale kookoo-lade.

Last edited by Grover; 07-09-2012 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 07-09-2012, 04:30 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Anyone who thinks there'll be a PG controversy did not pay attention to what Lowry was doing pre injury. He was working himself in to the top 7 PGs in the NBA before his injury, as he was averaging near 17 8+ and 5+ on good percentages. Houston would have made the playoffs if he didnt get injured.

Hell ya.

And in terms of tiers of PGs, I'd have it like this:

Tier 1- CP3, DWill, Rose, Rondo
Tier 2- Westbrook, Parker, Nash
Tier 3- Wall, Lowry, Lawson, Curry, Irving, Conley
Tier 4- Rubio, Jennings, Holiday
Tier 5- Calderon, Teague, Lin, Miller, Kidd, Dragic, I Thomas, Jack
Tier 6- Everyone else.
My 2012/13 Tiers :

Tier 1- CP3, DWill, Rose, Rondo
Tier 2- Westbrook, Lowry, Nash, Curry
Tier 3- Wall, Parker, Lawson, Irving, Conley, Dragic, Rubio
Tier 4- Jennings, Holiday, Lin, Thomas

Last edited by Grover; 07-09-2012 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 07-09-2012, 04:43 PM   #58 (permalink)
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My 2012 Tiers :

Tier 1- CP3, DWill, Rose, Rondo
Tier 2- Westbrook, Lowry, Nash, Curry
Tier 3- Wall, Parker, Lawson, Irving, Conley, Dragic, Rubio
Tier 4- Jennings, Holiday, Lin, Thomas
Tier 1- CP3, D-Will, Rose, Rondo
Tier 2- Westbrook, Nash, Parker
Tier3- Lowry, Wall, Irving, Lawson,Curry, Rubio, Holiday
Tier4- Calderon, Conley, Dragic, Kidd, Jack
Tier5- Lin, Thomas, Sessions, Felton
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Old 07-09-2012, 06:33 PM   #59 (permalink)
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media tiers:

tier 1 - lin
tier 2 - rose, cp3
tier 3 - dwill, rondo, nash
tier 4 - everyone else
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Old 07-09-2012, 06:36 PM   #60 (permalink)
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media tiers:

tier 1 - lin
tier 2 - everyone else
Fixed
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