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-   -   Just get a jump shooter already (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/just-get-jump-shooter-already-19124.html)

Claudius 01-28-2011 10:24 AM

Just get a jump shooter already
 
So, I was reading today's Star (I'm sure it'll be up in the dish), when I read this quote from Triano:

Quote:

I mean, its been a nice challenge, actually, to try to find ways, to read ways, to get DeMar (DeRozan) looks when everybody knows that youre going to go to DeMar because hes rolling, hes got 25 points or to give Andrea (Bargnani) the ball in a position where people might not expect it, Triano said Thursday.

All its done, really, is limit the number of options I have. I cant get (Leandro) Barbosa on an empty side (of the court) where he can use his quickness or a (Linas) Kleiza jump shot or something like that. Its just restricted the guys I can focus things on.
I'm looking at the Kleiza quote. Kleiza's BIGGEST strength is his post up game. Instead we're using him as a jump shooter. Why not use his strengths? It was the same thing with Turkoglu last year.

From an NBA.com interview:

Quote:

"Instead I was used in a different way in both of those situations. I don't have an answer for that. They tried to use me as a guy off the ball, a spot-up shooter. I respect those teams and maybe what their plans were. I went out there and tried to do my best in those situations. But it wasn't me. It wasn't who I can be."
Say what you will about Turk (lazy, fat, unmotivated etc.) but it seems that all we're looking for from our SF is to be a jump shooter instead of learning about their strengths and integrating them into the play.

Now, I really like Triano as a basketball mind. I've heard him speak in person (about 5 years ago) and he's a really nice guy and knows more than I could ever know about the game. However, even smart people make mistakes and I can't help but think he doesn't know how to use certain players. He has his offensive set and makes player adapt, rather than adjusting offensive sets to showcase those players skill sets.

I really wonder, what could have been had we had a different offensive game plan.

Sources:

Return to Orlando a very comfortable fit for Turkoglu | NBA.com

Raptors coach Triano juggles decimated lineup - thestar.com

bjjs 01-28-2011 10:31 AM

That first quote is a bit confusing....

Kleiza has never proven he can post up effectively in the NBA.

EggsToTheBBQ 01-28-2011 10:34 AM

Kleiza had success as a jump shooter with Denver. That part of his game seems to have deteriorated while he was in Europe.

I agree with Triano that the Raptors need Kleiza to start hitting from midrange and especially from 3.

Hopefully Linas will regain his shooting accuracy after a little rest.

Claudius 01-28-2011 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjjs (Post 500743)
That first quote is a bit confusing....

Kleiza has never proven he can post up effectively in the NBA.

I think his size @ SF can be used there. He seems a bit more at ease in the post for me and more involved in the game.

When he's out on the wing, he seems to being going through the motion.

bjjs 01-28-2011 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claudius (Post 500747)
I think his size @ SF can be used there. He seems a bit more at ease in the post for me and more involved in the game.

When he's out on the wing, he seems to being going through the motion.

He's had opportunities in the post this season. You look around the league and there aren't many SF who can get a post game off. Lebron, Joe Johnson are a few of them. Even a guy like Artest doesn't have a surefire post game and if anybody was going to have one it would be him.

You also have to consider who Kleiza would be posting up...it's no easy task. Every SF in the league has size this day and age.

LX 01-28-2011 10:51 AM

I think the post-up game is not very effective in general anymore, with the lane being more crowded and what used to be illegal defenses now being usable, so that players do not have to commit to the double until the offensive player makes his move. That takes away the threat of a pass and leaves the guy posting up going up against two or three defenders. It hasn't even worked very well for Lebron.

Kleiza has managed to only take the paint off the front rims.

Claudius 01-28-2011 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjjs (Post 500754)
He's had opportunities in the post this season. You look around the league and there aren't many SF who can get a post game off. Lebron, Joe Johnson are a few of them. Even a guy like Artest doesn't have a surefire post game and if anybody was going to have one it would be him.

You also have to consider who Kleiza would be posting up...it's no easy task. Every SF in the league has size this day and age.

While, I agree, (to an extent), I'll take Triano's words then:

Quote:

You can see the way he passes the ball, hes not a selfish scorer. He can score by shooting it, facing up, mid-range. Hes got a back-to-the-basket game when hes got a smaller guy on him.
Quote:

When he plays at the four, he gives you an opportunity to spread big guys away from the basket; if you put a smaller three on him, it gives us an opportunity to post up a guy that he might have an advantage over.
Kleiza delivers for Raptors - thestar.com

To me, I've never seen Kleiza as a straight jump shooter. He's not a guy you want driving as he has tunnel vision. He's got good footwork in the post and while it's not advanced, it's not his weakest area as well.

'trane 01-28-2011 10:56 AM

i think kleiza is our best post up player. that doesn't mean he's excellent at it, but i can't think of another raptor who i want operating in the post with his back to the basket on a regular basis. bargs would be nice, but other than that little hook thingy he's really a terrible post up guy.

you need at least one guy that can operate down there in order to free things up for your jump shooters. they should at least try getting kleiza going and see if that makes the mid range stuff open up for demar, barbosa, weems, jose, etc.

LX 01-28-2011 10:57 AM

You're really just asking your offensive player to wreck the flow of the offense while taking away any kind of space to operate. If the traditional use of post-ups was still in play, then it's a whole different story. It was a huge staple with any kind of successful team in the past. Now it just feeds into what defenses want to see. Even the Raptors have looked good defending postups.

finstock 01-28-2011 10:57 AM

I'd like to see Kleiza strictly take jumpers from the corner. He doesn't have the range and arc on his jumper to shoot well from the top. He can emulate Bruce Bowen, sans the defense.

As far as his game in the post, it seems that he only has a single move. It's not just his go-to-move, it's his only move. That being a drop step righty hook.

bjjs 01-28-2011 10:59 AM

I would take Bargnani or even Derozan at the two spot down in the post. It hasn't been an easy task to even get Linas the ball with good position.

MikeToronto 01-28-2011 11:00 AM

As far is Turkoglu is concerned - I'd concede him as BC's mistake first. Here, as in Phoenix, he was supposed to share the floor (and the ball) with the pure pass-first point guards in Calderon and Nash, while in Orlando, the place he seems to have always been most comfortable with, Nelson is happy to let him facilitate the offence while playing largely off the ball in the half-court sets. As such, it was folly for Colangelo and whoever makes decisions for the Suns these days to acquire Hedo thinking he is going to thrive in their respective systems.

bjjs 01-28-2011 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 500756)
I think the post-up game is not very effective in general anymore, with the lane being more crowded and what used to be illegal defenses now being usable, so that players do not have to commit to the double until the offensive player makes his move. That takes away the threat of a pass and leaves the guy posting up going up against two or three defenders. It hasn't even worked very well for Lebron.

Kleiza has managed to only take the paint off the front rims.

His post game was almost non-existant in Cleveland, and although he is still indecisive and throws up some ugly shots after passing up easy ones, I think it looks like his post game is coming together.

And he's one guy with his speed and strength, and possessing the threat to turn and put down an alley oop if he's fronted, that almost always gets really deep position. He hasn't become the scorer he can be from that spot, but he's still getting his teammates some really easy looks.

I could see him being a dominant post player in a few seasons, and I wouldn't be suprised if he proved unstoppable in the post in a few series this post-season. I can't help but think that in a 7 game series, Miami is going to hang their hat on a Lebron/Pierce type of match up in the post.


You are correct though, you just don't see consistant post ups unless it involves players with significant athletic advantages. Like Dwight, Yao or Shaq.

Their aren't any more Corliss Williamsons in the league, 6'6 SF who get to operate in space in the post.

Claudius 01-28-2011 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjjs (Post 500762)
I would take Bargnani or even Derozan at the two spot down in the post. It hasn't been an easy task to even get Linas the ball with good position.

I could be wrong, but I think I've seen DeRozan receive the ball in the post a few times and he hasn't been completely lost.

I do remember him hitting a fade-away baseline last game so maybe that's something he's working on perfecting.

0nekhmer 01-28-2011 11:31 AM

i really like the catch and shoot kleiza though, his shot has so much shot preparation and looks like it's going down each time, i guess he was injured in that stretch of awful games, shooting like under 30%. he shouldn't get as many touches but look to be a shawn marion type

archie63 01-28-2011 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EggsToTheBBQ (Post 500745)
Kleiza had success as a jump shooter with Denver. That part of his game seems to have deteriorated while he was in Europe.

I agree with Triano that the Raptors need Kleiza to start hitting from midrange and especially from 3.

Hopefully Linas will regain his shooting accuracy after a little rest.

3 point line was really closer in europe maybe he get accostumed to that distance and need more time to adapt

Ex2k 01-28-2011 12:28 PM

I dont know what happened with Klieza... he couldn't miss in the pre season... :confused2:

Ligeia 01-28-2011 12:29 PM

I think Kleiza's skill-set is not suited for being a consistent part of the offense. He does not have the handles to break down a player from the perimeter; he is not as good of a spot-up shooter as expected, either; and a SF posting up is not as advantageous because it is easier to time your doubles and, without a size advantage over everyone like a dominant big might have, Kleiza might have barely an advantage on the guy guarding him. Once upon a time, even a PG could dominate this league with his post game; I don't think the NBA is like that any more.

I totally agree that they need to do a better job of using Kleiza or find a Mike Miller/Kyle Korver if that's what they really want at that position. It's not like Kleiza is making up for it with his defense or rebounding, either.

Scully 01-28-2011 12:49 PM

I don't think we can really determine who on this team has good post presence. It is not really a part of our strategy. Traino has in imo opted with this team to drag bigs away from the basket trying to open up lanes for wing players or playing pick and pop with Andrea. The the closest we get is Andrea playing high post iso.

Kleiza isn't effective enough to have any low post presence, because he is not quick enough or explosive enough to be unaffected by the weak side help (and to be honest is rarely in position were he has the advantage of size and length).

The biggest problem is are best passer in the post is Andrea, and he always come off as kind of containable, not drawing doubles, easily pushed in to a jump shot.

I don't know if any of you caught KG playing high post last night vs. the blazers, but that is exactly the presence we need from Andrea. Some one out there looking first for high percentage shots, not always falling into the pump fake, jab step, drive or shoot scenario.

Scully 01-28-2011 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjjs (Post 500766)
His post game was almost non-existant in Cleveland, and although he is still indecisive and throws up some ugly shots after passing up easy ones, I think it looks like his post game is coming together.

And he's one guy with his speed and strength, and possessing the threat to turn and put down an alley oop if he's fronted, that almost always gets really deep position. He hasn't become the scorer he can be from that spot, but he's still getting his teammates some really easy looks.

I could see him being a dominant post player in a few seasons, and I wouldn't be suprised if he proved unstoppable in the post in a few series this post-season. I can't help but think that in a 7 game series, Miami is going to hang their hat on a Lebron/Pierce type of match up in the post.


You are correct though, you just don't see consistant post ups unless it involves players with significant athletic advantages. Like Dwight, Yao or Shaq.

Their aren't any more Corliss Williamsons in the league, 6'6 SF who get to operate in space in the post.

I think Scola is one of the exceptions in this case. He has some great post moves. But you don't see foot work like his everyday.


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