Jose & Team Spain - "PictureGate" - Page 8
Old 08-13-2008, 04:51 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mrs H Taz-Sylvester View Post
Just to point out that Muslims can eat beef ... being Muslim, I would know ... (back to reading the rest of your post)
I supose he means, indians - cow meat(Im actually not sure about this, I know the cow its sacred for them in many places and cant eat it, cant they?), muslims - pork.

Last edited by Belsius; 08-13-2008 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 08-13-2008, 05:33 PM   #142 (permalink)
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That's what I meant when I was writing about ethics and ethnoses - it all depends on one's (or one's community's) values.

Eating people is most definitely not cool in modern Western society, but it has been an honourable tradition in various cultures throughout history.
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Old 08-13-2008, 05:40 PM   #143 (permalink)
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What's being missed in all of this is the place its coming from. I agree that I find it offensive as much as the next guy.

However there is along drawn out history of racial prejudice against the Oriental East. Spain has an ugly history when it comes to it's imperial past....so does ANY Western country (US, France, Great Britain etc.) Therefore, to do this gesture, even though it can be spinned in a "postive" manner, it comes across as very much so naive. By saying, look at us, white Spaniards, we look exactly like the Chinese, it's not an act of love, but more so of cultural appropriation (in an odd sense). What distinguishes the Oriental population from the rest of their world ARE their facial features; by doing this it simply says that we too can be like you, but, we're still VERY different. And considering the history between the East and the West, that is where it can be seen as being offensive. A history for Spain, which holds the brutal treatment of the Phillipines.
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Old 08-13-2008, 06:06 PM   #144 (permalink)
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In India there are different religions and they each have different foods that they are not allowed to but people of that culture still do. For examplae Punjabi's can't eat and type of meat but you still see people eating it and it doesn't really offend anyone that someone of another culture is eating it in there coutry.
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Old 08-13-2008, 06:17 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
What's being missed in all of this is the place its coming from. I agree that I find it offensive as much as the next guy.

However there is along drawn out history of racial prejudice against the Oriental East. Spain has an ugly history when it comes to it's imperial past....so does ANY Western country (US, France, Great Britain etc.) Therefore, to do this gesture, even though it can be spinned in a "postive" manner, it comes across as very much so naive. By saying, look at us, white Spaniards, we look exactly like the Chinese, it's not an act of love, but more so of cultural appropriation (in an odd sense). What distinguishes the Oriental population from the rest of their world ARE their facial features; by doing this it simply says that we too can be like you, but, we're still VERY different. And considering the history between the East and the West, that is where it can be seen as being offensive. A history for Spain, which holds the brutal treatment of the Phillipines.
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by doing this it simply says that we too can be like you, but, we're still VERY different.
Dunno, I was thinking their message was "we are chinese too". It could be our different culture, dunno.

About that of Phillipines, I have to say that I have no idea what Spain did. Once I have said it, I would like to ask you when that happened.

BTW, don't think it wasn't anything worse than what Spaniards did to american natives in the name of God. And nowadays Spain is giving many helps to South America. What this means? That some centuries ago, we are the biggest motherfuckers sons of a bitch you could find on the earth and that now we are a country that understands the needs of the people, although they are foreign. Nothing to do the past with the present.

P.D.: did you know that at Belgium when children don't wanna sleep, their mothers say them that if they don't sleep the Spaniards will come and abduct them? Yeah, and when I was in Antwerp nobody call us kidnappers. Past is where we came from, and present is what we are.

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Old 08-13-2008, 06:20 PM   #146 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by gurkang View Post
In India there are different religions and they each have different foods that they are not allowed to but people of that culture still do. For examplae Punjabi's can't eat and type of meat but you still see people eating it and it doesn't really offend anyone that someone of another culture is eating it in there coutry.
Well, then take out the Indian and the beef from my example.

And thanks for the info, didn't know it.
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Old 08-13-2008, 06:28 PM   #147 (permalink)
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Ok, I have read some about the Phillipines, and there is nothing special. Dunno what you meant Claudius.
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:13 PM   #148 (permalink)
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As an Asian, I somewhat find it bias. But rather than invidious, I do think it's really stupid. The Greece team didn't need this stunt to promote their side, and neither did Germany. Why do something so reckless and inconsiderate just to promote whatever their cause was? I heard this wasn't the only contention Spain has caused (eg: soccer)
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:23 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Sorry if Im being dumb or whatever, this is my last post in this thread, I promese you.

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/depor...lpepudep_1/Tes

Quote:
The Embassy of China in Spain does consider neither an offense to the civic Chineses nor a racist facial expression the publicity photo ...

A spokesman of the embassy said that "we do not understand that facial expression like an offense" and he looked convinced that at his country it hasn't been interpreted as something offensive either.
The rest of the article talks about what the international press has said on this matter.
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:42 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n30tokyo View Post
As an Asian, I somewhat find it bias. But rather than invidious, I do think it's really stupid. The Greece team didn't need this stunt to promote their side, and neither did Germany. Why do something so reckless and inconsiderate just to promote whatever their cause was? I heard this wasn't the only contention Spain has caused (eg: soccer)
again the soccer thing, Im not defending it, but it happends in many stadiums around europe and south america. Sadly, racism and soccer (radical fans) frecuently go hand in hand. Generalitating is a ridiculous thing. Just some journalist in england writes and article and people use it to attack a country. English and Spanish sport journalist are idiots and are constantly at war, always attacking each other, that journalist is from The Guardian, one the most sensationalist papers in england.
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Old 08-13-2008, 08:33 PM   #151 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ugo Ferst View Post
Yes, because players have no say in what they appear in, hell give them all Nazi uniforms and they will wear'em and say "hey, wasnt my idea". Thats a load of bull.
players are not supposed to be experts in racial issues - if the people in charge told them that it's ok, why would they go against that? You have to try to understand that the mindset of europeans on these things is very different compared to americans. They probably didn't even consider it as a racial thing, and even if somebody raised the question, probably the marketing peple told them that it's ok.

And basically, the response from the chinese officials confirms that it wasn't a big deal. Don't you think it's rather funny that an english tabloid got so offended in the name of the chinese (and asians) and the supposed targets of the offending photo didn't take it as such?

I think it's sad when you're trying to stir a racial controversy just to sell more papers.
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Old 08-13-2008, 08:43 PM   #152 (permalink)
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And basically, the response from the chinese officials confirms that it wasn't a big deal. Don't you think it's rather funny that an english tabloid got so offended in the name of the chinese (and asians) and the supposed targets of the offending photo didn't take it as such?

I think it's sad when you're trying to stir a racial controversy just to sell more papers.
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:38 PM   #153 (permalink)
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I don't see why this is any worse than if the Olympics were in Mexico and a couple players had pictures taken of them wearing sombreros and eating tacos.

Blown way out of proportion IMO. It was a bad decision, but not the end of the world.
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:01 PM   #154 (permalink)
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I don't see why this is any worse than if the Olympics were in Mexico and a couple players had pictures taken of them wearing sombreros and eating tacos.

Blown way out of proportion IMO. It was a bad decision, but not the end of the world.
Last i checked, wearing somberos and eating tacos wasnt a physical trait that many people made fun of mexicans for having in the past.
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:01 PM   #155 (permalink)
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its amazing how offended the chinese are, a lot of people at spains game. Not one person booing them.
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:04 PM   #156 (permalink)
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its amazing how offended the chinese are, a lot of people at spains game. Not one person booing them.
I bet China's media isnt covering it like the world media, oh you didnt know they dont have access to alot of worldwide media?? SURPRISE!!!

China isnt trying to make a big deal out of this, which is a classy thing, but also for the reason they dont want this to overshadow the tourny or the Olympics in general, this is their big stage to show they can be classy and gratious hosts to the world.
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:32 PM   #157 (permalink)
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I'm only part-Asian, but I do have relatives with Filipino-Chinese ancestry who have seen this photo & they did not find it offensive. At least one thought it was in fact, flattering that they would want to look that way.

Now if one of those players was making a face, copying the accent & shouting na-na-na-na-na-nyah with racial slurs and purposely trying to mock someone of Asian decent, I could see the racial connotation, but a team photo when the players are going to be in a tournament in Beijing? I don't think so.

I agree, it would have been better for them to select a photo that would promote the Olympic spirit, but the photo they chose was just stupid.

Now Jason Kidd is sticking his nose in there to put the focus back on the US & the NBA.

Its much-ado about nothing and personally, I think its more political-correctness getting out of control
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Old 08-14-2008, 01:45 AM   #158 (permalink)
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funny

jason kidd speaks the truth and he's the bad guy

you guys seriously crack me up
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:40 AM   #159 (permalink)
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I give up on this.

Oh and one needs to look at 1898 to see what I'm talking about

I see the perspective that this is present day and therefore we should somewhat only think about the present. Fine, that's all fine and dandy. However, we cannot deny that historical background where this can come from. Yes, Spain was a bad country from about the middle ages to about the 18th century (the 19th century they were a shell of their former selfs). However, the Spaniards, through guilt of association or whatever you wish to call it, are Europeans and Europe on the collective (or just the very loud ones) has held a very negative view of others. This is where it can be seen coming from. I'm not trying to say, only Spain is to blame, but Spain acting as a representative of Europe, should've shown a little more class and looked at, hell, European treatment of others in European history.

It's funny though, whenever the U.S. (and God knows I slam them, ask Benzo) people bring up their history. Hell if the U.S. did this I guarantee you, people would be bringing up their history with Vietnam, Chinese-American relations, the racial laws passed in California in the early 20th century, hell everything would be brought up by individuals and the media. We'd even likely see a time line. However, when it is another state, all of a sudden, we say, no, no.....it's ok to forgive their history; let's see what their doing presently. I just don't understand how they reconcile this.
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:45 AM   #160 (permalink)
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its trully awesome to see how chinese people are not offended and americans are.
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