Jose & Team Spain - "PictureGate" - Page 6
Old 08-13-2008, 02:01 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Interesting read from Wojnarowski at Yahoo Sports.

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Originally Posted by Yahoo Sports
Spain photo exposing NBA double standard?

By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports

BEIJING – When Jason Kidd logged into a laptop to see the Spaniards with his own eyes on Wednesday morning, the photo appeared just as described to him: Here were National Basketball Association players giggling like schoolgirls as they posed with fingers pressed against their temples in a squinty-eyed pre-Olympic salute to China.

Before long, Kidd considered the consequences had those giddy European faces been substituted with those of Team USA.

“We would’ve been already thrown out of the Olympics,” he told Yahoo! Sports. “At least, we wouldn’t have been able to come back to the U.S. …There would be suspensions.”

And for his European peers, well, Kidd suggested, “They won’t do anything to them. It’s a double standard.”

For Spain, there are several NBA players, including the Lakers’ Pau Gasol and Toronto’s Jose Calderon, in this unnerving team photo. They wore Spanish uniforms and had the federation’s seal on the floor. It ran as a full-page advertisement in a Madrid newspaper, an advertisement for a national team sponsor. This wasn’t an impromptu shot, but a carefully calculated choice.

Gasol is too smart, too sophisticated, to have let this happen. After practice Wednesday, he suggested that he wasn’t troubled with the photo on the merits of longstanding racial implications as much as he thought it wasn’t funny. The sponsor pushed and pushed them to pose, he said. They broke him down.

“It was supposed to be a picture that inspired the Olympic spirit,” Gasol said.

And how’d that work out, Pau? Just imagine what would’ve happened had that explanation come out of the mouth of Carmelo Anthony? Here’s what would’ve happened: Stern would’ve been on the next plane to China to work the damage control.

The Spaniards made a deplorable circumstance worse with dense justifications and a sense that they had done nothing wrong and nothing offensive. When they were hemming and hawing, digging a deeper ditch, Kidd talked at Team USA’s practice. He was curious how the Spanish players were spinning this.

“They have some explaining to do,” he said. “They’ll come up with something good.”

Gasol and Calderon aren’t just accountable to Spain on this Olympic stage but the global corporate entity that pays them more than $130 million in pro contracts. The NBA could’ve delivered a ready rebuke on Wednesday and there was none.

They’ll dock you $50,000 for ripping an incompetent official, but you can get a pass on an orchestrated racial slur? Gasol is kidding himself to say that he was pushed into it. Do you think Kobe Bryant would’ve been pressured to pose this way? LeBron James? Gasol is a serious, sensitive player with the prestige and clout for Spain to step up and say: Forget it, fellas. This isn’t happening. Only he didn’t.

As much as anything, this episode feeds a prevailing feeling among African-American NBA players that they’re the constant scapegoats for whatever issues – real or perceived – plague the sport. Without the public demanding a pound of accountability for European players, do they get a pass?

“The simple question is, ‘Would Stern and the league hold the American players accountable?’ And I think the answer to that is yes,” one NBA general manager said. “So why wouldn’t he hold the ‘other’ NBA players accountable – unless the rules only apply to the American players.”

So far, there’s nothing out of the league office. Rest assured, unless there’s an outcry over that photo, the NBA will wish this story away. Maybe the league will even issue a mild rebuke. It won’t be enough. Maybe this doesn’t rise to a suspension, but there should be significant fines and a bold condemnation. There needs to be a message delivered to NBA players everywhere: When you earn your money with us, you are always on the clock. Kidd, Kobe and LeBron understand it. It’s time the rest of the league does, too.

As some suggest he’ll do, Stern can’t dismiss this as the business of a federation team. These are NBA players returning to NBA cities this year. Never mind the host country and millions of fans here, but consider the Asian-American season ticket holders in cosmopolitan cities such as Toronto and Los Angeles. One of the reasons the New jersey Nets traded for Yi Jianlian was to market him to a large Asian-American base in Metropolitan New York.

The NBA is a global league, so understand: Whatever the summer uniform, it’s the players who are forever representing the logo. The idea that Stern shouldn’t act on this behavior because it falls under FIBA and Spanish rule is ridiculous.

“We could say that too, but at the end of day, we are still representing the NBA,” Kidd said. “No matter if we’re saying (the actions) have nothing to do with it. At the end of day, we have to go back home, and our jobs are there.”

Stern is walking a slippery slope here, balancing relationships and partnerships in China and Europe. Already, there are jealousies developing in Europe over the way Stern is fawning over the Chinese market. Some European teams have told American marketers and agents that they’ve felt neglected in Stern’s wanderlust for Asia. FIBA is the governing body for European basketball and they’ve already dismissed this as a non-issue. That’s FIBA’s right, but the NBA has a different responsibility here. It has to take the higher ground.

“It would start an international riot if we did it, but they aren’t us,” an Eastern Conference executive said. “It’s low-rent stuff, but FIBA won’t do squat, so (the) NBA would show them up with any punitive action. I would be shocked if the NBA does any more than condemn (the) action.”

These Games have been a fascinating illustration in the complexities of the NBA’s globalization. The Americans have been treated like rock stars in China. Team USA has handled everything with grace and good humor. After too many trips overseas when this wasn’t the case for America’s national team, it sure is now.

Yes, there are different attitudes in the world, different sensibilities in Europe and North America. But for the NBA, there can be just one set of right and wrong. There should be only a strong voice and strong action now. No one should have to call for accountability from the Spaniards – the way that they would for Americans. Once and for all, David Stern has to be clear that there aren’t rules and responsibilities for different athletes, and different backgrounds – just those for an NBA player.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:03 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
I have not weighed in on this, because I think you folks have been doing a good job without me. (except SJ)

Simplify it a bit

Is something "racist" even if the intent of the act is not meant in an insulting way?


If your answer is yes, than it was racist, if your answer is not, than it is not.
Its kind of like having a black friend, that you have a running joke with, calling him the N word from time to time. It might be acceptable to him, but if you start saying it to the wrong people, you end up on your ass with a fat lip. Intent isnt why people are getting bent about it, its making an entire country look bad, and if i were from Spain i would stop making excuses for it and just say, it was stupid to do, it wont be done again, we will make amends in w/e way we can and move on. I think the excuses alot of you are making for them is what keeps the arguement raging.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:03 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:06 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ugo Ferst View Post
Its kind of like having a black friend, that you have a running joke with, calling him the N word from time to time. It might be acceptable to him, but if you start saying it to the wrong people, you end up on your ass with a fat lip. Intent isnt why people are getting bent about it, its making an entire country look bad, and if i were from Spain i would stop making excuses for it and just say, it was stupid to do, it wont be done again, we will make amends in w/e way we can and move on. I think the excuses alot of you are making for them is what keeps the arguement raging.
Nobody is debating weither or not it is dumb...of course it was...but was it racist....its a good question...and can be applied outside of this situation.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:08 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Good link Dr.

Boo Hoo, poor Pau got bullied into taking a photo he thought could be deemed as offensive and racist. I mean he isnt the biggest star on the team, he isnt earning millions of dollars in the USA, he obviously couldnt stand up to them and refuse to take the photo. Had to follow the company line like an athlete from the old Soviet Union.

These kind of excuses are what is making everyone sick, either, im not to blame, or its not as offensive as you are making it sound.

Jason Kidd is right, Team USA would be getting crapped out 100x worse, so i dont wanna hear the Spanish Team/fans crying about a little backlash.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:08 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Jason Kidd should remember his own words next time he decides to smack his wife around.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:11 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Jason Kidd should remember his own words next time he decides to smack his wife around.
Nice...

Kidds an asshole who needs to keep his abnormally large nose out of Spains affairs. I think he fears Spain and deep down wants to sabatage them.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:19 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Do we have a single person of Asian descent reading this board? If so, please, post and let us know if you've been offended by the photo.

This is getting ridiculous. Truly is. From Muhammad caricatures that offend Muslims to werid speculations about the origins of Jesus that offend Christians, to the word "nigger" that black people use among themselves, but are offended when a person of a different skin colour calls them that, to Chinese, who use, openly, a term for non-Oriental that is loosely translated as "roundeyes", and yet seem to be offended when someone else makes a "squint-eye" gesture - why have we all become so thin-skinned?

Yes, from the Caucasian point of view, all Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese have narrow eyes - there, I've said it. Just like we are round-eyed to them, they are squint-eyed to us. How is this making me (or Spanish team) racist is beyond my comprehension.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:32 PM   #109 (permalink)
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I have been called round eye by an asian person.

I thought it was funny.

but thats me.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:35 PM   #110 (permalink)
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4 simple questions that should be asked:

did it offend lots of people?

was it obvious that it would have offended lots of people?

is there an interest in not offfending lots of people?

could other choices easily have been made?

who cares if it was racist. the point is that it was foolish, and abviously so.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:44 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
4 simple questions that should be asked:

did it offend lots of people?

was it obvious that it would have offended lots of people?

is there an interest in not offfending lots of people?

could other choices easily have been made?

who cares if it was racist. the point is that it was foolish, and abviously so.
No, Coltraine, it isn't all that obvious, at least not to me. They've been fooling around, that's what's obvious to me, and the joke was mistaken for some sort of an insult.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:47 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Take this commercial, for example.

Some might claim that it's offensive for women, some might suggest that it ruins family values, but to me, it's just a funny way to promote a favourite beer.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:54 PM   #113 (permalink)
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yeah, that's offensive. and obviously so.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:58 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Nothing is obvious. Ethics differ with ethnos and cultural values vary.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:59 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Take this commercial, for example.

Some might claim that it's offensive for women, some might suggest that it ruins family values, but to me, it's just a funny way to promote a favourite beer.
When doing things like this photo though, they shouldn't have been thinking about what someone like you or I would think about it. If offending someone is a concern, they should be considering the reactions of those most easily offended, not people who are hard to offend.

They should've considered the worst case scenario...which is that someone would consider it offensive. And that's faaaar from a stretch. People get offended over everything. I don't necessarily agree with how sensitive people are, but it's a reality.

For any advertisment, if some people might consider it offensive, it's not worth it to put out there. Remember the Nike ads that got pulled last month? Not offensive at all, in my opinion, but they still got pulled.

Was it intentionally racist? I doubt it. Was it ignorant? Clearly. Can ignorance lead to being unintentionally racist? Hard to say.
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:00 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
Do we have a single person of Asian descent reading this board? If so, please, post and let us know if you've been offended by the photo.

This is getting ridiculous. Truly is. From Muhammad caricatures that offend Muslims to werid speculations about the origins of Jesus that offend Christians, to the word "nigger" that black people use among themselves, but are offended when a person of a different skin colour calls them that, to Chinese, who use, openly, a term for non-Oriental that is loosely translated as "roundeyes", and yet seem to be offended when someone else makes a "squint-eye" gesture - why have we all become so thin-skinned?

Yes, from the Caucasian point of view, all Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese have narrow eyes - there, I've said it. Just like we are round-eyed to them, they are squint-eyed to us. How is this making me (or Spanish team) racist is beyond my comprehension.
Why is wanting to have an intellectual discussion about something contentious, interesting, and troubling ridiculous? The act itself deserves more scrutiny because it doesn't occur inside a vacuum. Race is real. Opinions like your's say it isn't. Colonialism is real.
I mean really Mike, there are threads on this board that go on and on about shit that has very little relevance outside of this community. The fact that you find it ridiculous is probably due to some sort of subconscious threat, like we're going to touch on something you don't want breached.
The idea of the Oriental, is linguistically and politically opposed to its Occidental. Look up both meanings and see who comes out ON TOP.
You ignore the reality of power, and the position through which people speak from. Your position is self-evident and natural, at least that's what ideology tells you, and so you don't see a problem with calling black people niggers. After all, it's just a word, right? But what is being signified in using that word? Laziness? Stupidity? Being unlucky? Whose only talent is being skilled at "shuckin" and "jivin"? I'm not talking about political correctness because it hinders discourse like this, it says don't touch. I'm talking about being responsible for what you do, and say, and being aware of what you put out there. The Spanish team knew what they were doing.

We live in a world of white faces, where white people, with their way of thinking completely dominating the order of things, actually saying every living thing requires order, their order, still feel threatened when people don't see things their way. Maybe now I've made too much of it.
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:01 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Why is wanting to have an intellectual discussion about something contentious, interesting, and troubling ridiculous? The act itself deserves more scrutiny because it doesn't occur inside a vacuum. Race is real. Opinions like your's say it isn't. Colonialism is real.
I mean really Mike, there are threads on this board that go on and on about shit that has very little relevance outside of this community. The fact that you find it ridiculous is probably due to some sort of subconscious threat, like we're going to touch on something you don't want breached.
The idea of the Oriental, is linguistically and politically opposed to its Occidental. Look up both meanings and see who comes out ON TOP.
You ignore the reality of power, and the position through which people speak from. Your position is self-evident and natural, at least that's what ideology tells you, and so you don't see a problem with calling black people niggers. After all, it's just a word, right? But what is being signified in using that word? Laziness? Stupidity? Being unlucky? Whose only talent is being skilled at "shuckin" and "jivin"? I'm not talking about political correctness because it hinders discourse like this, it says don't touch. I'm talking about being responsible for what you do, and say, and being aware of what you put out there. The Spanish team knew what they were doing.

We live in a world of white faces, where white people, with their way of thinking completely dominating the order of things, actually saying every living thing requires order, their order, still feel threatened when people don't see things their way. Maybe now I've made too much of it.
You had me up to here Cling...


That is no-longer the case, weither it be good or bad.
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:07 PM   #118 (permalink)
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You had me up to here Cling...


That is no-longer the case, weither it be good or bad.
How so? Perhaps I should've clarified. Whiteness isn't solely about a persons racial physiology, or what the majority consents to be white, because remember, the Irish only recently were included in that grouping. I'm talking of a way of seeing the world, and the places I've travelled, I've seen and heard people of all cultural and racial origins espouse white ways of looking at the world and themselves. How is it no longer the case? Whiteness and modernity are ideologically bound.
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:08 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Cling, you misunderstood me completely.

I didn't call this discussion ridiculous. I called ridiculous the ease with which people seem to be offended these days. And I know full well why black people hate the N word - but could you possibly explain to me why then they are using it so oftem themselves? My ethnic background is Jewish (Ashkenazi) and believe you me, there are certain words in Russian, Ukrainian or Polish no Jewish person ever wants to hear - but we never call ourselves that!

As far as the intellectual discussions are concerned - bring 'em on!
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:10 PM   #120 (permalink)
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How so? Perhaps I should've clarified. Whiteness isn't solely about a persons racial physiology, or what the majority consents to be white, because remember, the Irish only recently were included in that grouping. I'm talking of a way of seeing the world, and the places I've travelled, I've seen and heard people of all cultural and racial origins espouse white ways of looking at the world and themselves. How is it no longer the case? Whiteness and modernity are ideologically bound.
"Old White Men" has become a term of insult in the US recently, the world is being controled by foreign oil...etc....

I suppose if you are linking "white" with "modern" I can't argue that, but the world is changing and one thing is for sure, "power" knows no color.
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