Jose & Team Spain - "PictureGate" - Page 14
Old 09-04-2008, 12:40 PM   #261 (permalink)
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It's just a symbol.

Originated by Budist and hinduism religions, just happened to be chosen by Nazi and Neo-Nazi groups.

Not condoning the whole Nazi movement but again it is just a symbol. Hate should be directed toward the people who beleived in the principals of the movement, not the symbol of the movement itself.

Not saying that you views of the symbol isnt valid, its just that if a symbol can create hate, what would you be like if put face to face with a follower?

And besides, it's not the same symbol, if you want to get technical. In the picture the "cross is positioned as a + and on the Nazi flag it was positioned as an X
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:59 PM   #262 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
1. If you are ready to compare Soviet flag to a Nazi svastika, you will have to provide some arguments to support this, preferably of a personal nature, because...

2. To me, an Ashkenazi Jew, that symbol represents the highest level of hate achievable for a group conscience. My family and families of my friends have lost members to both concentration camps and battles fields. That's my explanation for my personal reaction.
technically speaking, during the stalin years there were more people killed than during the whole world war. Most of them were in Russia, but also in various eastern europeans countries. Millions of people have died in Siberia, not because of their race or color, but for political reasons (many times not even that -it was enough for somebody to not like you and denounce you as a "traitor"). During the war there were countless officers and soliders executed at Stalin's whim, and the prison camps in CCCP were not that different than the nazi's ones.

But then again, most of this was done by Stalin and a small group of fanatical followers, just like most of the nazi regime's crimes were done by Hitler, SS and fanatical nazis. The regular german or soviet citizen had nothing to do with it, and generally speaking nobody is blaming them for those crimes.

However, most people in eastern european countries consider the crimes commited by communists as bigger than those comitted by the nazis (mostly because they were not directly affected by them). Jews and other races (gipsy etc) will obviously not share this point of view, since they were the main targets of the nazi's hate.

This only goes to show that it's all very subjective - and it's very easy to tread on somebody's toes these days. There was so much killing done in the last centuries in the names of various religions or social and political goals, that almost everybody can be offended (especially if they're too sensitive ...).
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Old 09-04-2008, 01:05 PM   #263 (permalink)
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I wish more energy was spent by all of us preventing this shit from happening in other countries then we seem to spend on whining about the past which we cannot change.

No offense, but that ship has passed, we need to look at the future.
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Old 09-04-2008, 01:48 PM   #264 (permalink)
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couldn't agree more
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Old 09-04-2008, 02:28 PM   #265 (permalink)
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Moremilk, SJ, SB - I wrote about the way LX used one particular picture. I've been face-to-face with neo-Nazis both back home and in Germany and broke more than one of those "faces" - but that's beside the point.

LX chose the picture of a girl field hockey team in svastika-adorned sweaters to illustrate some notion he had with regards to the gesture the Spanish basketball team made in their photo. IMHO, that's like comparing a nuclear bomb to a firecracker and that was the point of my reaction.

On a totally unrelated subject - I use the flag of USSR to indicate the country I was born in, not to condone the actions of Stalin et al. I supposed that this should be obvious to anyone observing my online persona, but I guess I was wrong. Once again, LX's post was a statement, my flag - an indication of a point of origin.

Dixi.
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Old 09-04-2008, 03:29 PM   #266 (permalink)
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I suport ya Mike.

I'm no where near qualified o even take place in that conversation you're having. I respect where you are all coming from.


I'm just saying..... I'm more thinking bigger picture, I know you have some very relevant words on this one.

Cheers mate.

Last edited by Superjudge; 09-04-2008 at 03:30 PM. Reason: cuz I CAN!
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:04 PM   #267 (permalink)
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Dude - I wasn't really trying to make a big statement. I was just offering an example of a team picture that was even worse than the Spanish bball team. You clearly saw nothing but the symbol on their jerseys, because it's not a field hockey team. Girls can actually play hockey on ice, and always have - even back in 1916. I only hoped to offer some perspective, not to compare. If I had said that the hockey girls from Edmonton were as bad as Jorge and Jose, then you could accuse me of making a horrible comparison. I actually said that it made the Spanish team look tame in comparison. And I hoped to make everyone feel that the whole thing is pretty ridiculous when you look close enough. So I just don't know what you are suggesting my motives are.

I'm with you on your approach to neo-nazis, and I've done a few things to work against the white power movement here, including working with the government to have their music banned from entering the country. Now the picture I used can hardly be thought to have any content of neo-nazis, or express any of their inexcusable sentiments from my perspective, but I'm truly sorry if, from your perspective, you find the opposite.
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:14 PM   #268 (permalink)
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I've been thinking more about what draws me to the picture, and really it's just about the incongruities. Who would expect women from Edmonton to be playing hockey back then, and playing in skirts, and then with that symbol which would become so notoriously awful?

Anyway it is one of my favorite pictures, because I like incongruities. And I thought it was a good place to share. And my initial reaction to this picture was quite similar to my reaction to the basketball team pic. That one seemed very shockingly incongruous as well. And I was surprised that no one involved could see that. Anyway that's it - no statement or grand purpose, but perhaps dumb and irresponsible in that I should keep my love of incongruities to myself.
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Old 09-04-2008, 09:15 PM   #269 (permalink)
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yeah - personally I have no problem with it either, I was just pointing someting that's probably not as universally known in NA. What insight_tor mentioned is a big deal in our part of the world, just as big as the holocaust is for jews. However, as SJ eloquently said, what's past is past - the future is what matters.

On the other hand, you say that you never thought of using the flag as a way of condoning Stalin ... And I say ... duh? Of course you didn't, what insight_tor was pointing is that you having the flag could be seen as offensive, just like the spanish photo could be seen as offensive, just as the edmonton photo could be seen offensive.

The real question is, should anybody feel offended when it's EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that no offense was intended? The hardcores behind all this political correctness would argue to death that intention doesn't matter because even good or harmless intentions could be used by idiots in support of their "beliefs". Which to a point is also true - but nevertheless, today it got to absurd situations, when media is looking very hard to see racism where there is none (not to mention that usually it's done just for the purpose of selling more papers - don't tell me that the english tabloid has such a respect for asian people that it became their spokeperson).

And that's what I have a problem with - I want to live in world where I should be allowed to speak freely and make (honest) mistakes (as long as they're honest), not with a constant fear of getting crucified to the point where you might as well not attempt to enter a debate about the subject, because it's too "touchy".
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:54 AM   #270 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
1. If you are ready to compare Soviet flag to a Nazi svastika, you will have to provide some arguments to support this, preferably of a personal nature, because...

2. To me, an Ashkenazi Jew, that symbol represents the highest level of hate achievable for a group conscience. My family and families of my friends have lost members to both concentration camps and battles fields. That's my explanation for my personal reaction.
Mike, Soviet flag brings for many people from Eastern Europe bad memories, soviet tanks rolling over into your city, working camps in Siberia and not to mention communism which was imposed by Soviet Union ( ) to all these countries ... Praga '68, ring a bell?

To me: my grandfather spent 7 years in Siberia working camps because he was against communism that Soviets were trying to enforce in my country. And he was so right to be against, years and years my country was occupied politically by CCCP using Red Army and KGB as "arguments". I personally lived 16 years in that hell called communism imported by Red Army in my country ... so yes, Soviet Flag is a symbol that doesn't bring me joy at all!

More info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag

Last edited by insight_tor; 09-07-2008 at 02:09 AM. Reason: more info
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Old 09-07-2008, 04:06 PM   #271 (permalink)
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Despite my gut feeling that tells me this is not a good idea, I will attempt once more to clarify the differences in symbolics that are apparent to me, but seem to be fairly obscure to others. Once again, this is done from a purely personal perspective and this post will be my last contribution to this thread.

Flags define countries. All countries, pretty much without fail, have had their good moments and their bad moments. Germany, Italy, Spain, US, Russia (or Soviet Union) have done a lot over the course of their histories that later generations found highly disagreeable. Nazism, communism, Inquisition, slavery, fascism - the list goes on and on and pretty much no country is exempt. I am pretty sure if I dig deep enough into Romanian history, I will be able to find something pretty brutal there, like the fact that Romania, among few other smaller European nations, actually had its native Nazi-supporting government during the WW II - but that's beside the point.

Thanks for reminding me of the recent history of Eastern Europe - you'd think that having been born at the heart of its epicenter would be enough, but obviously you felt compelled to mention Praga in '68 and Gulag - sure thing, that happened. You could add golodomor in Ukraine, Budapest in '56, Poland and Solidarnost in the 80s, Afghanistan, the repressions of 1937-39, the dissidents, the otkazniks - the list goes on and on. Should we create similar lists for all nations and ban their flags from this and any other site altogether?!

I can easily tell the difference between Nazis/neo-Nazis (with their swastikas/other attributes) and Dr. J/other people from Germany or of German descent. When he decides to fly his Deutsch colours, to me he represents his cultural background and his family's national origins, nothing more. If someone thinks that because I was born in CCCP and decided to advertise this fact I am in some way responsible for past atrocities or condone them, that is not my problem in the least.

Swastika is different. While it had been used as a religious/philisophical symbol in the distant past, the XXth century has sadly redefined it to represent German Nazism and fascist movements in general around the globe. It has less to do with a particular country and a lot to do with a particular ideology, one I happen to personally find highly offensive. Am I being clear here?

This is it, then. Now, it's truly dixi.

Last edited by MikeToronto; 09-08-2008 at 09:48 AM. Reason: Density of the opponent
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Old 09-07-2008, 05:57 PM   #272 (permalink)
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Based on your theory Mike, if I would be born in Germany, 1945, I shall use the Nazi Flag ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Germany )?
I am not saying you are the one who did the atrocities that Soviet Union use to do. Just trying to make the point that for different people communism symbol from Soviet Flag is as bad as swastika is for Jew people. Too bad you don't see the difference. And you can keep the flag, but don't fault LX for his picture is not worst than Soviet flag! This was the point from the beginning!
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Old 09-24-2008, 11:40 AM   #273 (permalink)
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Took this from some dudes post on Realgm

Quote:
I just got an interesting email from Jose Calderon (read: Bryan Colangelo) regarding the Team Spain incident in China.

The email came from his email address he used to personally respond to people who email him from his blog/website.


This is NOT a post to re-start discussions whether or not Team Spain behaved inappropriately. Its simply to share an email. and here we are:

Hi,
After the large controversy regarding the photo taken of the Spanish
National Basketball Team, I have begun to understand that for some of you,
our pose was not well received, and was even offensive.

You have explained to me the significance of the action that I had not yet
grasped. I first want to ask for your forgiveness and second, to thank you
for your explanation. For those who personally know me and those who see
me play, I think that you know very well that there is nothing further
from my personality than being inappropriate. You have the most absolute
assurance that none of the players on the National Team, including myself,
would have accepted to have the photograph taken with our gestures if it
had crossed our mind that it could result in offending even a single
person in the world. Frankly we did not know that it could be negative or
hurtful, and it was not our intention to offend anyone.

We live in a global world but at times we are not informed of all of the
sensitivities or feelings of the cultures and races. I want to take this
controversy as a personal education so that it will help me to deepen my
knowledge with respect to the differences in these cultures from mine so
that a similar situation will never happen again.

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with me,
Jose Manuel Calderon
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Old 09-24-2008, 11:56 AM   #274 (permalink)
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Old 09-24-2008, 11:59 AM   #275 (permalink)
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Apparantly Jose emails like a robot...

..I call bullshit
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