Jose is NOT the problem
Old 12-06-2008, 03:53 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Jose is NOT the problem

Jose in 2007 has started 56 games, about 70% of the season. He has played an average of 34 mpg, shot 53%, had 13 points and 9 assists. He was backed up by players even worse then Ukic/Solomon at the PG position.
The team's record with Jose as a starter was .500, 28 wins vs 28 losses.
When TJ was injured, the record is actually a lot better, 18 -13, for a .580 percentage.

So, to recap, without TJ, the team of last year was almost identical in composition, with two major differences. We had Rasho, Carlo and Dixon, now we have JO, Roko and Will. Except for JO, the other players are on the bench. During the 31 games played with that roster, we had a .580 winning percentage. We won on the road in SA and New Orleans and almost won in Houston too. The schedule was pretty tough too, with games against SAS (x2), Hou, Phoenix, NO, Detroit (x2), Boston (x2), Cleveland, Portland (x2), Lakers, Orlando etc.

During these 31 games, Jose has played some of the league's top PGs. Here are some of the numbers posted by those PG in December and January:

vs SAS (win)
Tony Parker: 15 points, 4 assists, 7 TOs, 4/12 for 33% shooting
Jose: 14 points, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 1TO, 6/13 for 47%

vs NOH (win)
Chris Paul: 23 points, 16 assists, 1 TOs, 8/16 for 50% shooting
Jose: 17 points, 12 assists, 3 TOs, 6/12 for 50% shooting

vs Detroit (loss)
Billups: 18 points, 9 assists, 1TO, 7/14 for 50% shooting
Jose: 15 points, 9 assists, 1TO, 7/13 for 54% shooting

vs 76ers (win)
Miller: 14 points, 7 assists, 2TO, 5/14 for 35% shooting
Jose: 17 points, 9 assists, 2TO, 6/10 for 60% shooting


Jose was never a defensive stopper, but for the most part, he held his own against the opposing PGs, and the team won at a very consistent rate. So whoever says that Jose has not proven himself as an NBA starter doesn't know what they're talking about.


That being said, it's obvious right now that Jose is playing very poorly on defense. Some of the blame is shared by coaching, for example that nice spin move Deron put on him, Jose was trying to push him to his right, and Deron just spun around and there was nobody behind to help. But in the end, Jose is having a lot of troubles keeping almost any PG in front of him.

As far as I can see, there are two possible reasons:
1. injury - before that, he was a bit more effective.
2. fatigue - he had a busy summer, and his conditioning is not good enough to allow him to play 35+ minutes. Sam played Jose several games of 40+ minutes in the first month of the season. He had a very stupid and unforced injury, which could very well have been a direct result of fatigue.

Maybe Jose, at this best is an average defender, but when tired or injured, he loses enough quickness to make him nothing more than a pylon. Maybe if given more rest, he will return to his adequate play from last year (even at the beginning of this season he was better).

Last edited by moremilk; 12-06-2008 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:57 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I believe the injury he had really screwed him over. If you recall the stats before him getting injured was 20 pts and 11 assists. Which is amazing but after he came back he hasn't played the same. Hopefully once he reaches 100% again he'll be able to play like that again
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:58 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:59 PM   #4 (permalink)
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He's a part of the problem.
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:00 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I believe the injury he had really screwed him over. If you recall the stats before him getting injured was 20 pts and 11 assists. Which is amazing but after he came back he hasn't played the same. Hopefully once he reaches 100% again he'll be able to play like that again
Yeah i know
He was dropping 20's
And then he got hurt and rushed back
Cause We were playing sloppy ass basketball
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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He's a part of the problem.
qft
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
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He's a part of the problem.
What's your eveidence????
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Welcome back to me :P

Well, as usual my opinion wont be popular. I really hope Calde's injury is much worse then ppl realize, because im losing confidence in him. Even on these games where he drops 20, its because of jumpers and open looks etc, he rarely if ever breaks another PG down and gets someone an open look. He just plays very basic and rarely makes a mistake, which is great for teams that have a good amount of set plays in a halfcourt slow it down type of offense, but is that really the way BC wants us to play, or designed us to play?? I hate to bring up old arguements, but i still believe TJ fit our optimal offensive style better, and was a major factor in the very overachieving 47 win season that got our fanbase delusional on the true expectations of our team.

Jose can prove me wrong and get healthy and become a force, but im getting worried about him in all honesty, i dont consider him an elite PG in anyway ATM, even with this good games, he isnt Nash breaking teams down, and making sick kick out passes for open looks, if you want an open look with Jose, you better get open yourself, he isnt beating a man and making stuff happen, he slows down alot negatating the speed advantage alot of our players have, and he loathes taking risks so much i feel at times it hurts us, as i watch Joey or Moon open for a lob and nothing... anyways, go raptors!
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:08 PM   #9 (permalink)
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AGREED

thank you for your work on this thread.
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:11 PM   #10 (permalink)
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What's your eveidence????
The fact that he is on the team. The entire team, every single freaking player right now is to blame.

I would argue though, if your PG is not doing a good job facilitating the offence (we're strictly perimeter oriented) and not driving and then on the other hand, defensively not pressuring the opposing team's PG or making things difficult then you deserve the blame.

Again, as I said earlier, issues on the court usually fall on the PG more than anyone else because the entire game essentially begins and ends with his play.

Again, he's part of the problem but not the sole person to blame.

Our guards can't rebound
Bosh can't defend
Kapono is a waste of space
We're not talented enough on the wings both defensively and offensively
We take terrible shots
We don't play a good zone defence
We're not good enough to play man to man defence
Our match up zone sucks b/c our i.q. is low

Where could I go on. These all belong to all the players. They all gotta wear it.
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:15 PM   #11 (permalink)
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there's no question that Jose is bad right now - the question is :
1. is he a bad player (on defense)
2. is he injured
3. is he tired

I was trying to prove that #1 is not the case, since over a large sample of games last year, almost a full season, he was at least average. Since he' s not old or anything, he can't get suddenly get worse with no good reason.

I don't really buy the injury thing anymore either, since it happened a month ago almost. So my guess is that he's actually tired from playing too much and not being on good enough shape due to the time lost with the olympics and the injury he had after that.
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:20 PM   #12 (permalink)
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By no means am I putting the entire blame on just one player like most are with Bosh now, but for Jose's sake I really hope its the hamstring injury that causing this semi decline.

Offensively the numbers are where most expected, they don't seem consistent especially with scoring. He's averaging 12 points per game, but the bulk of that scoring came in the first 4 games of the season against weaker opponents. So, his scoring numbers right now are reason to be concerned if I'm a fan. (in which most certainly I am) Assists, well that was a given and when you have someone like Bosh who's averaging close to 30 and Bargnani and O'Neal 10+ points per game its no surprise Jose averaging 9 assists per game.

Lack of defense is reason enough to be concerned when you think the most crucial position on either team is usually your PG. Jose's defense hasn't even been "average" as you alluded to milk, it's been flat out atrocious. Steve Nash looks like Bruce Bowen defensively when you compare him to Jose. Its no contest. Jose doesn't challenge the opposing team PG at all. So, for his sake I really hope he can use the nagging hamstring injury as an excuse. Because if he's 100% right now, then we got bigger problems than Bosh wanting to be MVP and Triano as our head coach for the rest of the year. JMO
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
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The fact that he is on the team. The entire team, every single freaking player right now is to blame.

I would argue though, if your PG is not doing a good job facilitating the offence (we're strictly perimeter oriented) and not driving and then on the other hand, defensively not pressuring the opposing team's PG or making things difficult then you deserve the blame.

Again, as I said earlier, issues on the court usually fall on the PG more than anyone else because the entire game essentially begins and ends with his play.

Again, he's part of the problem but not the sole person to blame.

Our guards can't rebound
Bosh can't defend
Kapono is a waste of space
We're not talented enough on the wings both defensively and offensively
We take terrible shots
We don't play a good zone defence
We're not good enough to play man to man defence
Our match up zone sucks b/c our i.q. is low

Where could I go on. These all belong to all the players. They all gotta wear it.
I agree that alot of players have to take blame, but expectations of Jose were huge coming into the year, nobody expecting Bosh and Kap to become elite defenders this year, but many expected Jose to play on a very elite level consistently. All defensive problems i say the whole team needs to take the blame, minus JO. But offensively, Jose is a big problem atm, it could just be that Sam didnt run enough plays, we dont get Kap running thru screens, or run a few plays for guys like Joey (come on guys, Joey has been GREAT lately start him already!!!!!!!!!!!!!) just to not let our offense become the same stagnent, Jose walks it up, either pick n roll or post up pass to Bosh..... Jose needs to garner the courage to take more risks, and plz plz take the open shots we all know you can hit so guys come up tight on you and perhaps even drive once in a while!! We have guys that can score on this team, Jose is definately one of them, but we can just walk it up the court and try to wear down teams in a halfcourt set, we just arent built for it and Jose needs to either suck it up and run, or admit he is more hurt or tired then we know and let us develop Ukic (YIKES).
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:24 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Honestly, i havent even talked about Joses D... because i thought it was pretty well evident he is one of the worst PG defenders in the league, if not the worst... Watch him versus any true elite PG, you cant compare, they blow by him like he isnt even there, Williams has barely played this year, all he had to do was give Jose his back and go either way, Jose has no answer for it. Im more concerned offensively, because i knew what we were getting from Jose defensively, nothing.
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:27 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Honestly, i havent even talked about Joses D... because i thought it was pretty well evident he is one of the worst PG defenders in the league, if not the worst... Watch him versus any true elite PG, you cant compare, they blow by him like he isnt even there, Williams has barely played this year, all he had to do was give Jose his back and go either way, Jose has no answer for it. Im more concerned offensively, because i knew what we were getting from Jose defensively, nothing.
Elite? Ugo, Rondo, Felton and Augustin were blowing by him. He'll, John Stockton right now in his 40's could blow by Jose. This has nothing to do with the league's elite. This is a very serious concern considering we are easily the worst perimeter defending team in the association and Jose can't do anything to contribute defensively.

Jose is NOT the problem, but he's a big part if it.
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:33 PM   #16 (permalink)
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you just named the three quickest guards in the league

the biggest kick out of this thread is both the name of it and moremilk winning the world apologist championship of the year award.
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Old 12-06-2008, 04:33 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Man - I can pull up all kinds of games last season where he definitely did not hold his own, and the team suffered, often blowing leads. I just don't think what he showed over a handful of games was enough to accept that he had proven himself as a starting pg that works for this team in particular.

Now I don't put all the blame on him, but moreso Colangelo, and Mitchell, for making Jose their guy and then not doing enough to make it work. Ultimately that was going to be difficult, but they should have at least found something better than Solomon and Adams, to round out the roster.

Ultimately it is on Jose though, and I'm just not sure that I'm confident that he can grow more confident and play much less tentatively - and that is killing this team.
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Old 12-06-2008, 06:38 PM   #18 (permalink)
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No PG can excell with shitty wing players!With that being said,he's second in the league in assists, second in the league in turnovers.In other words he facilitates plays for his teammates and he takes care of the ball.If he had better players at the 2&3 spots that shot better and had some balls he would be averaging 14/11.

He's not the problem.Our biggest problem is AP/JK/Moon/Ukic/Solo-Man
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Old 12-06-2008, 07:22 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Man - I can pull up all kinds of games last season where he definitely did not hold his own, and the team suffered, often blowing leads.
by all means - why don't you pull them?
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Old 12-06-2008, 07:28 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Now I don't put all the blame on him, but moreso Colangelo, and Mitchell, for making Jose their guy and then not doing enough to make it work.
correct me if I'm wrong, but what did you expect Colangelo to do? Let Jose go this summer? Everybody was in agreement that Jose was underpaid at 8 millions, and we got a hometown discount in that deal. Try and find a single article from this summer where the amount given to Jose was considered too much.

If you question keeping Jose vs TJ - that was the major debate, and only time can tell whether that's true or not. So far, both teams are doing worst then before, Indiana is pretty much in the same spot as last year, despite having 2 new players (TJ and Rasho - JO didn't really play last year), and a much improved Granger. We all know about Toronto.

And, besides their value, the major knock on TJ is that he spent almost two months last season thinking whether he should retire. The next time he gets injured (and it's only a matter of time given his history), he might actually go ahead with that plan. Can you imagine the reaction from media and fans if BC decides to trade Jose and keep TJ, and 3 months into the season TJ decides to retire???
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