Jonas Valanciunas: False Messiah? - Page 5

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View Poll Results: Have we been too easy on Valanciunas (in terms of not actively criticizing his game)?
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:40 PM   #81 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummond so people stop whining

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Harden is overrated now?
Of course, a 23yr old averaging 25/5/5.....too funny.

If Derozan was averaging that we'd give him a max deal and most wouldn't say a word.

Last edited by jeffb; 12-18-2012 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:46 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Ok, so do you address my point that it's worked out for us in the past trying to build around a SG?

We need to stop our addiction to flash names. Harden at his OKC contract was a bargain. Harden at a max contract, I'm not so sure of (in terms of building around that one contract).
How is building around an all-star caliber player at any other position any different? Carter gave us some of the best basketball we ever watched here in Toronto. He literally put Toronto on the map. That experiment failed for several other reasons. If management actually stepped up and Butch Carter incorporated T-Mac moreso into the offense, who knows things might have been a little different. We definitely had the talent if we retained those peices to contend for the eastern conference championship. Kobe even mentioned that in the past.
Moreover, I'm fairly confident almost every GM would be willing to pay Harden that type of money right now. We would have Lowry and Harden. We could move Bargnani for other pieces. We would still have space. Does it mean we contend for a championship? No. We at least have one major piece of that puzzle moving forward. I'd like to think Lowry is a good piece as well.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:47 PM   #83 (permalink)
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A player is worth whatever a team is willing to pay. Bosh has a max contract but probably isn't a max player,however the Heat don't win a championship without him. Harden makes the Rockets significantly better,his loss from the Thunder won't reflect until it matters for OKC,which is in the playoffs. The term "messiah" is a bit extreme but is Valanciunas struggling? Yes. Can he improve his faults? Yes, it's as simple as that.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:51 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Of course, a 23yr old averaging 25/5/5.....too funny.

If Derozan was averaging that we'd give him a max deal and most wouldn't say a word.
Wow you guys think Harden is overrated. DeRozan putting up 5 assits per game?? LOL I can't see that happening. I'm looking at the way Harden gets his points. He can shoot the ball, break down his defender/explosive first step, get to the line, a better defender than DeRozan, a play maker etc. It's not all about stats. The guy can play basketball.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:58 PM   #85 (permalink)
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It doesn't mean we can't take a critical approach to his game. Why can't we mention Drummond's name? I didn't even state that Andre Drummond would be better, but merely left an open ended question: what if that were the case one day? We passed on him and someone gets frustrated at the mere mention of the pick coming back to haunt us. That's what makes me want to scream. It's definitely within the realm of possibility that one day that could be the case.
I don't think you know my posting history here. I've been against Drummond since, I want to say February of 2011. I think more individuals read NBAdraft.net and see the comparison (hence why I read Amare so much) and think, oh he's a steal. Why? (Not to you right now), but why? Did you watch him in college or on youtube? Did you only read about him on the internet? Are mock drafts gospel? THAT'S what drives me crazy about Drummond. Everyone watched his highlight reel and read his player comparisons and then think they know better than evaluators during draft time! (/rant)

In regards to the question, it's a question that can always be asked of any player. It's disingenuous to do this early into anyone's career because we don't have enough of a body work to judge from. Everything's in the realm of possibility. This is attempting to search for a story when one doesn't exist (yet).

This is what drives me crazy about our fan base, unrealistic expectations, and when they aren't met, we need to evaluate. No one thought JV was a messiah (as your thread title insinuated), at least not this season. A 20 y.o. centre, in his first year in the NBA, adapting to a new culture, will take, at minimum 2 years before providing tangible results. Patience is a virtue.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:04 PM   #86 (permalink)
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How is building around an all-star caliber player at any other position any different? Carter gave us some of the best basketball we ever watched here in Toronto. He literally put Toronto on the map. That experiment failed for several other reasons. If management actually stepped up and Butch Carter incorporated T-Mac moreso into the offense, who knows things might have been a little different. We definitely had the talent if we retained those peices to contend for the eastern conference championship. Kobe even mentioned that in the past.
Perhaps I don't think that highly of James Harden? It's easier to build around a post presence imo than a guard. Basketball, specifically playoff basketball is still routinely played in a half court setting. Having big guys who can pass, shoot and rebound at a high level are critical. SFs would be next on that list as they're routinely your best player.

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Moreover, I'm fairly confident almost every GM would be willing to pay Harden that type of money right now. We would have Lowry and Harden. We could move Bargnani for other pieces. We would still have space. Does it mean we contend for a championship? No. We at least have one major piece of that puzzle moving forward. I'd like to think Lowry is a good piece as well.
Sam Presti was not willing to pay that price.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:08 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Of course, a 23yr old averaging 25/5/5.....too funny.

If Derozan was averaging that we'd give him a max deal and most wouldn't say a word.
He's overrated in terms of how 'great' he is.

Does he put up big numbers? Yes. He's the primary option on that team. He's always been a natural scorer. That's never been his problem.

He was a better overall player on OKC though. He had a role and he excelled at it. Hence, my comment that he was rated essentially where he should be to slightly underrated to now being overrated.

And if Demar were to average that, I would still question the validity of the contract. It's a matter of how does he improve his teammates game (if at all). A max player (with today's economics) should help improve the overall team not only for himself but by improving the play of others. If not, he will likely be handicap (small or large) in the future.

This all essentially boils down to the argument of, who is worth a max contract and who is not. I understand market forces dictate that, but for arguments sake, I throw that notion out the window.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:31 PM   #88 (permalink)
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He's overrated in terms of how 'great' he is.

Does he put up big numbers? Yes. He's the primary option on that team. He's always been a natural scorer. That's never been his problem.

He was a better overall player on OKC though. He had a role and he excelled at it. Hence, my comment that he was rated essentially where he should be to slightly underrated to now being overrated.

And if Demar were to average that, I would still question the validity of the contract. It's a matter of how does he improve his teammates game (if at all). A max player (with today's economics) should help improve the overall team not only for himself but by improving the play of others. If not, he will likely be handicap (small or large) in the future.

This all essentially boils down to the argument of, who is worth a max contract and who is not. I understand market forces dictate that, but for arguments sake, I throw that notion out the window.
Today’s economics?? You have borderline all-star’s receiving close to max type dollars. In that context, people are getting overpaid like crazy. Harden has definitely been a good addition to the Rockets. We somehow equate “max,” with hamstringing the team indefinitely. They still have young assets, draft picks, and cap space to add to that. In no way shape or form are they done yet.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:32 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Perhaps I don't think that highly of James Harden? It's easier to build around a post presence imo than a guard. Basketball, specifically playoff basketball is still routinely played in a half court setting. Having big guys who can pass, shoot and rebound at a high level are critical. SFs would be next on that list as they're routinely your best player.



Sam Presti was not willing to pay that price.
James Harden can definitely play half court basketball. And who said we’re done with just James Harden? He’s getting the max but it’s not the same type of max that UFA’s get. We would still have options to shore up other areas. It now definitely looks like a missed opportunity on our part.
Sam Presti wasn’t willing to pay that price because ownership didn’t want to go into luxury tax.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:34 PM   #90 (permalink)
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I don't think you know my posting history here. I've been against Drummond since, I want to say February of 2011. I think more individuals read NBAdraft.net and see the comparison (hence why I read Amare so much) and think, oh he's a steal. Why? (Not to you right now), but why? Did you watch him in college or on youtube? Did you only read about him on the internet? Are mock drafts gospel? THAT'S what drives me crazy about Drummond. Everyone watched his highlight reel and read his player comparisons and then think they know better than evaluators during draft time! (/rant)

In regards to the question, it's a question that can always be asked of any player. It's disingenuous to do this early into anyone's career because we don't have enough of a body work to judge from. Everything's in the realm of possibility. This is attempting to search for a story when one doesn't exist (yet).

This is what drives me crazy about our fan base, unrealistic expectations, and when they aren't met, we need to evaluate. No one thought JV was a messiah (as your thread title insinuated), at least not this season. A 20 y.o. centre, in his first year in the NBA, adapting to a new culture, will take, at minimum 2 years before providing tangible results. Patience is a virtue.
I'm not one of those guys going crazy by reading draftnet. I thought your frustration was geared towards me just for the fact that I raised that question. Nonetheless, he has certainly caught many by surprise thus far. He's still quite raw offensively but has done fairly well in his limited action. I wouldn't characterize the question as disingenuous because the fact of the matter is it doesn't ask the reader to provide an answer at the present time. It simply asks what if that’s the case down the road. I'm not implying that's going to happen, but if it does, it would definitely be a huge oversight on our part and can have repercussions for the franchise. I didn't insinuate anything nor am I judging his future career. I even mentioned that it's way too early to write him off defensively. BC has hyped this kid up as to one day assume the mantle as our franchise player. I'm merely raising a discussion based on his opinion/expectation, which I think is completely fair.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:50 PM   #91 (permalink)
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James Harden can definitely play half court basketball. And who said we’re done with just James Harden? He’s getting the max but it’s not the same type of max that UFA’s get. We would still have options to shore up other areas. It now definitely looks like a missed opportunity on our part.
Sam Presti wasn’t willing to pay that price because ownership didn’t want to go into luxury tax.


If you're talking about how the league values Harden, it's also worth pointing out that last spring a bunch of the league's executives were surveyed and asked whether they would keep Westbrook or Harden if financial considerations forced them to move one of them. Harden received more votes of confidence. Now, of course, people can shit on Westbrook for his style of play (like TORap does daily) but the guy is an all-nba talent. Yet more executives were willing to let him walk than Harden. A lot of executives would have given Harden the max and just moved Westbrook.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:01 PM   #92 (permalink)
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This is the most ridiculous thread in the forum from Jonas to Harden.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:21 PM   #93 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummond so people stop whining

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This is the most ridiculous thread in the forum from Jonas to Harden.
Look around, there's worse.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:08 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Claudius- your posts in this thread have been excellent.

bill- I'm one of those who "rip" on westbrook but i have to admit this season, I've been adjusting my opinions. Obviously his leap in APG is extremely impressive. He's a decent defender and is improving that. The only issue left is the IQ, still too many TOs, but he's made (smaller) improvements in that area too. Last season i would've undoubtedly kept harden, the mooted rondo/westbrook trade would've been incredible for OKC! But now, i'd say it's a close call, i may even go with westbrook! Especially with k-mart doing so well and the potential of lamb.

as for the jonas talk, ridiculous. Yeah, of course we can question him, who isn't!? but question his performances NOW, not future! Yes there was a question mark used but "false messiah" is a very emotive phrase and suggests towards the future. There are ZERO conclusions to be made about JVs future based on his play so far.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:19 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Claudius- your posts in this thread have been excellent.

bill- I'm one of those who "rip" on westbrook but i have to admit this season, I've been adjusting my opinions. Obviously his leap in APG is extremely impressive. He's a decent defender and is improving that. The only issue left is the IQ, still too many TOs, but he's made (smaller) improvements in that area too. Last season i would've undoubtedly kept harden, the mooted rondo/westbrook trade would've been incredible for OKC! But now, i'd say it's a close call, i may even go with westbrook! Especially with k-mart doing so well and the potential of lamb.

as for the jonas talk, ridiculous. Yeah, of course we can question him, who isn't!? but question his performances NOW, not future! Yes there was a question mark used but "false messiah" is a very emotive phrase and suggests towards the future. There are ZERO conclusions to be made about JVs future based on his play so far.
Yeah, okay many people are questioning him right now?? Question his performances NOW?, not future! Actually take the time to read my initial post/piece before jumping to that conclusion. I have made no conclusions on JV's future. BC has hyped this kid up as to one day assume the mantle as our franchise player. I'm merely raising a discussion based on his opinion/expectation, which I think is completely fair. I left it up for debate, which is what the question mark signifies.

Last edited by Raptors1995; 12-18-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:26 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Bravo! You just failed at humor.
I wasn't trying to be humorous. Put it this way, if there was a draft with the entire Raptor roster on the board, Drummond would be drafted 1st overall. Only player I could see go ahead of him is Lowry.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:38 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:46 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Yeah, okay many people are questioning him right now?? Question his performances NOW?, not future! Actually take the time to read my initial post/piece before jumping to that conclusion. I have made no conclusions on JV's future. BC has hyped this kid up as to one day assume the mantle as our franchise player. I'm merely raising a discussion based on his opinion/expectation, which I think is completely fair. I left it up for debate, which is what the question mark signifies.
"false messiah" (the thread title) was too much imho.

no problem with you posing questions, or even opinions, but you should expect comeback when they're pretty incendiary.

let's go another way with this. is he a false messiah? NO, imho.

what do you think?
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:48 PM   #99 (permalink)
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everyone was calling JV da franchise everytime he made a shot, it was bound to happen, such a thread like this.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:53 PM   #100 (permalink)
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everyone was calling JV da franchise everytime he made a shot, it was bound to happen
guess i should stop that habit then
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