I'm going to go out on a limb and say ..... - Page 2
Old 01-14-2008, 09:02 AM   #21 (permalink)
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i made the same Hoffa / Gino comparison in my head a couple of times too. Yeah, it's a bit far fetched and not at all in terms of skill and talent, but in terms of mental mistakes and Bball IQ, Bargnani seems to be lacking right now.

The other similarity is exactly how Sam is treating Bargs. The same as how he dealt with Hoffa. Start him in the first anf third, and then yank him quickly after some mistakes. I don't like this approach because it's not yeilding any kind of improvement. I just don't think this coaching style is doing ANYTHING for Bargnani's game.

It's definately the time to take him out of the starting lineup and to put Rasho back in there. I don't know if i'd sit him outright, but Sam has to change something up for Gino's sake.
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Old 01-14-2008, 10:43 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I'm really not sure how better you can handle Bargnani's minutes... if he starts and starts sucking and you leave him in to suck... you risk throwing out the game. If you bring him off the bench he sucks in the second unit....It's really up to Bargnani to step up and get his game back. Sam's job is to win games first and formost and he needs to have the people on the court he thinks will accomplish that end.
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Old 01-14-2008, 02:34 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Sam had an unfortunate youth, and it shows in his "teaching" methods. Tough love is the only thing Sam understands. It's starting to become a trend with mitchell, first Hoffa, then Graham, now Andreea. Hoffa was a stiff, but Joey clearly has talent, and Andreea is tremendesously skilled, and yet they're struggling.

And Sam's job is first and foremost to develop the young guys, and secondarily to win games. Coaches like Flip Saunders, Doc Rivers or D'Antoni have a primary task to win games. Teams like Toronto, Portland or Seattle have a different objective. Sure, winning is nice, but it's not the main goal this season ...
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Old 01-14-2008, 02:46 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
Sam had an unfortunate youth, and it shows in his "teaching" methods. Tough love is the only thing Sam understands. It's starting to become a trend with mitchell, first Hoffa, then Graham, now Andreea. Hoffa was a stiff, but Joey clearly has talent, and Andreea is tremendesously skilled, and yet they're struggling.

And Sam's job is first and foremost to develop the young guys, and secondarily to win games. Coaches like Flip Saunders, Doc Rivers or D'Antoni have a primary task to win games. Teams like Toronto, Portland or Seattle have a different objective. Sure, winning is nice, but it's not the main goal this season ...
Well said, but perhaps this is something we might add at the assistant coaching level? I like a head coach to be focused on winning as many games as possible, regardless of the players he's handed. Big men coaches and player handlers have to have some role in developing the guys that are falling behind the pace of the rest of the team. Sam needs to support that, there's no doubt, but his job is win games, IMO.
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Old 01-14-2008, 03:03 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Well said, but perhaps this is something we might add at the assistant coaching level? I like a head coach to be focused on winning as many games as possible, regardless of the players he's handed. Big men coaches and player handlers have to have some role in developing the guys that are falling behind the pace of the rest of the team. Sam needs to support that, there's no doubt, but his job is win games, IMO.
I agree with you here. Sam's primary job is to win...just ask him He will oversee the development of his players, but mostly through his staff so adding an experienced big man is the way to go...i.e Magic with Ewing.

To suggest players don't develop well under Sam is ludicrous... look at Bosh, Calderon, Ford, Humphries to name a few? It may not work with everyone but there are enough success stories under Sam to know he can relate to players and they listen and play for him. He's still growing and learning as a coach but to blame him for Andrea struggling this year or Joey not gaining the consistancy we'd all love him to have is not fair at all.
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Old 01-14-2008, 03:17 PM   #26 (permalink)
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It's not tough love. It's expecting accountability. And it's working with everyone else. Nobody gets laid into more than Jamario. And he responds. Bargnani merely needs to show some kind of a response. He is tremendously skilled, so it shouldn't be so hard right? Does he need Sam to give him a gold star in recognition of those skills.

And let's look at this trend -

Hoffa - admittedly a stiff - so that doesn't count.

Joey - struggling? I question that. I think the team has gotten a lot out of Joey all in all. At the end of last season he came up big. He suffers from inconsistency, and having guys ahead of him on the roster, but I don't call that struggling.

Andrea - struggling? Or learning a new position and facing opponents that are fully prepared for him, and not proving mentally prepared for either most of the time. So reward him for that? Bargnani is not falling behind the rest of the team. He has shown that he has what it takes, that he knows what he needs to do. He just has to get himself in the right frame of mind whenever he is out on the court.

If there is any criticism I might take a stab at - it would be regarding how the team allowed him to coast a little too much on his natural skillset last season. Somewhere along the line he seems to have gotten the idea that he doesn't really need to play a physical game. He had free reign to launch a ton of threes last season, and I guess that never should have been the case. He did use his size, and pretty well, but they should have insisted on it being used consistently, and more aggressively. He would have fallen into the same funk I imagine, but then he should have come out of it by now.

Slowly but surely he's going to feel more comfortable, Really - he just needs time, and not time on the court playing poorly. He needs time to understand where he needs to go as a player, along with time to get more comfortable so far away from home and all that.

And let's see...this team losses a few in a row and what do we hear? Not that Sam shouldn't worry about winning.
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Old 01-14-2008, 03:21 PM   #27 (permalink)
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He's still growing and learning as a coach but to blame him for Andrea struggling this year or Joey not gaining the consistancy we'd all love him to have is not fair at all.
Absolutely SWAN and this just comes back to what I've been saying for the last couple years ... you can only blame Sam for so long before it gets tiring. The players themselves have to be held accountable too for their actions or lack there of in this case. Andrea and Joey have been given more than enough opportunities to prove themselves. Constantly coddling & catering to them isn't going to make them stronger. Tough love might be the only way to get his point across. :mad:
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Old 01-14-2008, 03:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Tough love might be the only way to get his point across. :mad:
It's also possible the point may never get accross. Look at guys like Olowakandi... tons of talent..just never got it. It happens.
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Old 01-14-2008, 05:26 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Come on man, you can't say Hoffa and Bargnani in the same sentence! Come on! That's a little much right now. Until you see Bargnani do something like THIS, you can't bring up Hoffa.
I think my point was that both Hoffa and Bargnani are in similar predicaments within the larger context of the team. if anything Bargnani's leash, and the tollerance of the fanbase is a lot shorter because this is clearly recognized and hyped as a legitimate playoff team. we can't say the same about Hoffa.
But my point was that both Hoffa and Bargs, despite their poor play, find themselves in a similar situations, thwarted into the lineup because of the perception of their role being the future centre of the team. i know Bargs has a lot more potential than hoffa, but frankly he isn't living up to it.
also, hoffa has the misfortune of being drafted to high.
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Old 01-14-2008, 05:29 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Sloan coudn't turn Haffa into a player either.
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:48 PM   #31 (permalink)
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true, Bosh was a success. Moon owes nothing to Sam though (other than a chance to play), he was good from the beginning. Jose and TJ were good players when they got here - I can't say I noticed any improvement in TJ's play from his first game of 2006/07 season to the last game before he was injured. And I doubt Hoffa was high on Sloan's priority list, for them he was nothing but a scrub at the end of the bench.

But in any case, I totally agree that it's not Sam's job to improve Andreea's skills - that should be Bryan's and Andreea's concern. However, it's 100% Sam's job to motivate a young player, to keep his head above the water - and it looks like he's failing at this task.
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