If you don't get solid offers for Jose, you move Jack.
Old 07-14-2010, 06:05 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Almost everyone is jumping all over the trade Jose Calderon bandwagon, and I can understand why, he has a bad contract and his defense leaves a lot to be desired. But it also seems that almost everyone is over-rating Jack, laughably anointing him a "captain" and a leader of these "Young Gunz" who consist of D-Leaguers, back-ups, rookies, and a potential all-star in DeRozan . All while acting as if he's some untouchable elite point guard who can effectively defend.

In 26.7 minutes played Jose scored 10.3 PPG, 2.1 RPG, 5.6 APG, and had a +13.01 efficiency rating while making 8.2 million last season.

In 27.4 minutes played, Jacked scored 11.4 PPG, 2.7 RPG, 5.0 APG and had a +13.21 efficiency rating while making 5 million last season.

Their stats are pretty much entirely the same, aside from the contract numbers, which makes Jack more of a bargain, and a more attractive piece to move in this league. Now, everyone who jumps all over Jose Calderon's defense, act like Jack is the Ron Artest of point guard, or at worst, is substantially better than Jose. Unfortunately, they are in for a rude awakening. Jose has a defensive rating of 116 points given up per 100 possessions, yet Jarrett Jack’s defensive rating is 115 points per 100 possession. So much better right? Wrong.

Whoever is our starting PG next season, whether it be Jose or Jack, will once again be bad on defense, the thing you have to address if you truly want to contend, is how can you get better defensive and offensive players around them to off-set that? It would seem you could get a better package of defensive players in a Jarret Jack deal to protect Jose than vice versa.

Just adding my two cents, personally, both players are pretty garbage in my eyes, and are back-ups at best in this league currently. But it appears one guy will be starting, and I want to move the player who gives me the most value on the market.

Conclusion: They are both embarrassingly bad on the defensive end.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:12 PM   #2 (permalink)
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but Jack is the leader of the young gunz and he has a shorter contract and he`s younger and he`s more aggressive
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Windex View Post
but Jack is the leader of the young gunz and he has a shorter contract and he`s younger and he`s more aggressive
can't tell if that's to mock some of the posters, or if it's what you actually think.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:16 PM   #4 (permalink)
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its statistically impossible that two worst defensive PGs are both on the team
Conclusion: the problem is elsewhere, team defense, coaching, mentality

But you are correct in saying that Jose is better PG of the two. Jack and Banks looked ok because Hedo was on the team
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:18 PM   #5 (permalink)
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can't tell if that's to mock some of the posters, or if it's what you actually think.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:22 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Keep Jose. Trade Jack.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:23 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Jose is an assist machine, not so sure about his fast break game as he demonstrated last year. Although last year we only had a few individuals running and a few yogging at best. I wouldn't be opposed to trading either one of them, at least Jose didn't sit on the bench with a completely defeated bitch ass look on his face.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:30 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Keep Jose. Trade Jack.
why dont you marry him already
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Another great example of why stats come up short. If they trade Jack now it will be a travesty, pure and simple.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Shifty.py View Post
its statistically impossible that two worst defensive PGs are both on the team
Conclusion: the problem is elsewhere, team defense, coaching, mentality

But you are correct in saying that Jose is better PG of the two. Jack and Banks looked ok because Hedo was on the team
1 - can you clarify what you mean by: "it's statistically impossible that the two worst defensive PGs are both on the team" ?

Why? For the record, I don't think they are the two worst, but why are you saying it is statistically impossible? What you're trying to say could be true, but it's not clear to me what you're trying to say. Just a minor point that I'm curious about.

2 - there were indeed defensive problems all over the place. From a defensive standpoint, this team was not well coached. And that's not just random internet user's opinions. SJ can tell us all that we're not experts until the cows come home, but there are people who coach for a living who agree with those of us who think the coaching staff is not doing a good job on that end. Even when Bargnani was off the court, the Raps had a very poor defensive rating (even if it was slightly better), so people can't just blame Bargnani's help defense; there is more to it than that.

3 - For the record, Jarrett Jack has never had an impressive defensive rating. It's difficult to know if that means he is a bad defender or just not a great one. He might be an average defender. None of the TEAMS Jarrett has played for were good defensive teams. During his last year in Portland, the Blazers were still developing. JJ managed the same defensive rating as Roy. JJ might be an average defender, who looks shitty when playing for offensive minded teams who don't defend well.

Either way, I don't see a huge problem with the OP. It is directed at certain people's arguments, not all of them. Personally, I still want to get rid of Jose, if possible. Mainly because I want BC to rid the organization of that contract. Also, I'm not sure how much you can expect to get for Jack alone. His contract is so small that I don't think you'll have as many trade options. If you're lucky, maybe you get a good prospect on a rookie contract. But, other than that, Jack is not going to yield much of a return unless he is packaged with an expiring, like Reggie. Maybe you could move Jack and Reggie for something decent, like a pick and a big expiring.

If a trade happens with Indiana, I think it makes more sense that Jack and Reggie would be going to the Pacers. Indiana has made a bunch of moves to ensure that they have a shitload of cap space in 2011-2012, so I don't see Bird and Co. fucking with that situation by taking on Jose's bloated contract. When you add Jose's trade kicker, his salary goes above $10 mill during both of the last 2 seasons, and close to $12 mill during the last season of the contract. If I am Larry Bird, that makes me puke.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I don't care which goes... I like both, and hate both at the same time, I'd say whichever gives us the better deal long term. And it would probably mean caldy going, I'd also like him to go because of his garbage contract.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Another great example of why stats come up short. If they trade Jack now it will be a travesty, pure and simple.
why?

Because he is so stellar of a pg that it kept him locked up long term by every team that he has played on in the nba. Or perhaps that he tends to throw tantrums when things dont go his way. Or that he was statistically equal or lesser to Jose in virtually every category in Jose's worst year.

Jose is a marginal starter, Jack is a backup.




Only thing Jack has on Jose is he is younger and on a cheaper deal.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:57 PM   #13 (permalink)
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why?

Because he is so stellar of a pg that it kept him locked up long term by every team that he has played on in the nba. Or perhaps that he tends to throw tantrums when things dont go his way. Or that he was statistically equal or lesser to Jose in virtually every category in Jose's worst year.

Jose is a marginal starter, Jack is a backup.




Only thing Jack has on Jose is he is younger and on a cheaper deal.
Agreed. Jose is a little better than Jack but that's part of the reason they didnt get along well (I suspect). Between Jose and Jack there were probably always thoughts that one was better than the other. This is why we're looking for a clear cut #1 PG or someone with #1 PG potential. Only thing Jack has on Jose, I feel, is his bond with the young guns.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:59 PM   #14 (permalink)
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biggest problem is that neither are clear cut number 1 pg. Jose was but hasnt been for a couple of years, Jack has never been
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:08 PM   #15 (permalink)
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i think if somebody was to actually look up Jose's numbers they would find that he looks great against mediocre and "bottom-feeder" teams but looks horrible against tier 1 clubs
and his defense is horrible no matter who he plays against

trade him...now
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:19 PM   #16 (permalink)
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if we keep Jose than we need to have a good back up PG because he is going to get injured.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:49 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I like jack's game better.
This fall Jose needs to take his talents somewhere else
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:54 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mr. Mxyptlk View Post
i think if somebody was to actually look up Jose's numbers they would find that he looks great against mediocre and "bottom-feeder" teams but looks horrible against tier 1 clubs
and his defense is horrible no matter who he plays against

trade him...now
I remember some great games he played against the likes of Rose and CP3 over the last couple of years
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:17 PM   #19 (permalink)
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If Jose could be counted on to be healthy and consistently play like he has in some of those memorable games, then there's no question. But he's not built to last. Jack is. And Jack has shown the ability to lead and mentor the younger players on the team. He'd also have no problem stepping aside if that veritable starter falls into their laps. Jose is not going to give up that status any more than he's going to give up his starter's pay. The only real path is through keeping Jack.
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:20 PM   #20 (permalink)
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If you look at Jose he would be a salary dump with us receiving very little back of value.

Its due to his History of injuries and his defensive liabilities .
If he was putting up previous assist and turnover ratio's and was putting up 14 points no one would care about his defense.

Unfortunately every year has produced lower numbers even his FT average took a huge hit last year.

JJ on the other hand has more value from the extent in the last 2 years he has replaced starting PG on 2 teams successfully. Do I personally believe he is a starter for any competitive team ? No but in our case he is the lessor of 2 evils.
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