If Vince Carter never left...
Old 12-04-2007, 11:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Could we have ever made an appearance at the NBA finals?
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Old 12-04-2007, 11:49 PM   #2 (permalink)
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No chance in hell. A better question would be if Vince never got hurt in season 4 and subsequently lost some of his passion and ability to recklessly drive to the hoop, could we have made it to the finals.

It's very strange to have a player of Vince's pedigree peak in his third season, with guys like Kobe and TMac improving well into their sixth years and not dropping off too much.

Yet Vince tapered off after year 3, declining a little bit each year, with the exception being his passing, which did improve a lot in season 5, though at the cost of shooting apparently - he averaged a career high 4.8 assists, along with a career low - at that time - 41.7% from teh field.

In year 8, totally healthy, Vince was averaging career lows in everything. Being traded to the Nets and having Jason Kidd, who plays with his heart on his sleeve and knows exactly how to set his teammates up, was exactly the kick in the ass Vince needed; it singlehandedly salvaged his career.

Remember the "I don't want to dunk anymore" comments? The guy is a fucking primadonna, not a team leader.

He's still a talented second option, but even in the playoffs last year it was RJ and Kidd doing most of the damage. Carter bounced back after a few terrible showings in the post season, but even overall he ended up shooting 39.6% in the playoffs last year over 12 games. That doesn't get teams to the finals...

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Old 12-04-2007, 11:56 PM   #3 (permalink)
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He hasn't made one playing along side one of the best point guards of the last 10-15 years, so in short NO.
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Old 12-05-2007, 09:56 AM   #4 (permalink)
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If Vince never left I probably would have! Basketball was so boring to watch with him on the team. Let's review the Raps playbook circa 2000 shall we? Alvin Williams brings the ball up the court and dishes to Carter...

Wow! That was amazing wasn't it? Watch that 85 times a night and you really get to appreciate how Friends was on tv for 10million years

Seriously i'd rather watch a Jamario Moon or Matt Bonner hustling their butts off for less wins than whiny primadonas writhing in pain on the floor after a highlight reel dunk any day of the week.

Has NJ made the finals since Vince arrived??
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Old 12-05-2007, 11:21 AM   #5 (permalink)
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for some strange reason i think he'd be Mr. Injury and would always be on and off the IR.
the guy was a soft peice of glass here in Toronto... he goes to NJ and becomes an ironman... WTF?
maybe it was something in the water up here...
we'd suck... he'd be injured every other game, and we'd have his mother running the team.
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Old 12-05-2007, 11:51 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I don't think we would have made the finals. The guy has no heart. He's not the kind of guy who can lead and the thing is, as a franchise, we would have needed him and leaned on him to provide that very thing. Also, with him being in the fold, we wouldn't have acquired Villanueva - which lead to TJ Ford..or Anthony Parker.. or Jose Garbojosa. We probably wouldn't have had Bryan Colangelo - the man who brought a lot of these guys in. We might have been a perennial 7th-8th-9th seed.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:44 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I think taking Vince out of your questions Lang, and inserting McGrady into there. That'd be interesting to think about. I remember reading an interview with Kobe in Slam about four years ago. He was talking about how committed he was to championships, and mentioned how he thought McGrady was an example of a player who wasn't. At the time, though no one saw Grant Hill being as injury prone as he was, Kobe commented that if TMac had stayed with Vince then we'd probably made it to the finals that year to meet the Lakers instead of the Sixers.
I think McGrady leaving was much more significant given the structure of the team, and the way both guys were playing at the time.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:52 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I agree Cling. The loss of T-Mac hurt this team more than anything. Had both stayed healthy and played together there was no reason to see this team not going deep into the playoffs.

The only problem probably would have been we would have been running into a Lakers team that was in their prime both offensively and defensively. Would we have had an answer for Shaq when he was arguably the best player in the game in the 2000s? Hell were we even better than Portland or Sacramento?
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I'm not sure I agree. Kobe is a player and he's giving props to other players that are allstars, but really neither Vince nor Tracy are winners. Together they would just score a lot of points but when it came down to driving or fading away, going for the throat or patting the a$$... both take the a$$ every time.

The team we have now is the best Toronto has ever seen from an overall depth of talent standpoint and a depth of character standpoint. These guys will be winners!
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Old 12-05-2007, 05:06 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sick, Wicked and Nasty! View Post
I'm not sure I agree. Kobe is a player and he's giving props to other players that are allstars, but really neither Vince nor Tracy are winners. Together they would just score a lot of points but when it came down to driving or fading away, going for the throat or patting the a$$... both take the a$$ every time.

The team we have now is the best Toronto has ever seen from an overall depth of talent standpoint and a depth of character standpoint. These guys will be winners!
you're basing your opinion on what they've done to date. at that point they were both to young guys with boatloads of talwnt who'd brought some respectability to a franchise who'd never had it. whether or not they were winners was up in the air. you become a winner in this league by being surrounded with guys who knew how to do it (oak and AD) and a good coach, for all his craziness, butch Carter was the best x's and o's guy this team had, and barring the players tuning him out and making a move for grunwald's job, he showed more in his first year on the job than anyone else.
If TMac had decided to stay then that would be the gauge through which you'd see if he was a winner or not. I think if he'd stayed and both guys stayed healthy, then yeah, the way the east was at the time, we could've definitely contended.
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:43 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I think I'd have to agree that we lost more when T-Mac left. The only reason I pose this question is because the Vince Carter trade is the one deal everyone still cries about. For argument's sake, let's disregard what kind of players we could have got instead of who we received.

There's no doubt that the Carter trade was one of, if not the biggest, turning point in this franchise. When that trade went down, a fork in the road was created, and what I'm interested in determining is that after all was said and done, would we have reached an NBA final faster with Vince Carter as a career player here, or on the path we are now.
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:55 PM   #12 (permalink)
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There's no doubt that the Carter trade was one of, if not the biggest, turning point in this franchise. When that trade went down, a fork in the road was created, and what I'm interested in determining is that after all was said and done, would we have reached an NBA final faster with Vince Carter as a career player here, or on the path we are now.
If that's the question then I would say the path we have now without a doubt. Vince Carter was a player who even in his prime really never was able to live up to the pressure. Look at the infamous Philly game. The game was there for the taking but he decided firstly to put himself above the team and second choose a questionable shot. It was those type of decisions that showed that he would never really be that "go to" guy. Instead he needed to be continuously surrounded by very talented players who wanted to be that go to player (see: Chris Childs).

The team we have now, sacrifices for the collective whole. Seeing now that we have a franchise big, well two really and are incredibly deep at the PG situation, we're in a better position to succeed as we're not relying on one guy to win, but the entire team.
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Old 12-06-2007, 09:09 AM   #13 (permalink)
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you're basing your opinion on what they've done to date. at that point they were both to young guys with boatloads of talwnt who'd brought some respectability to a franchise who'd never had it. whether or not they were winners was up in the air. you become a winner in this league by being surrounded with guys who knew how to do it (oak and AD) and a good coach, for all his craziness, butch Carter was the best x's and o's guy this team had, and barring the players tuning him out and making a move for grunwald's job, he showed more in his first year on the job than anyone else.
If TMac had decided to stay then that would be the gauge through which you'd see if he was a winner or not. I think if he'd stayed and both guys stayed healthy, then yeah, the way the east was at the time, we could've definitely contended.
I'm answering the question posed..what else am i supposed to base my opinion on? The article you referred to was 4 years ago when Kobe made these comments and we already knew neither Vince nor Tracy was a winner. Vince had already begun his whiny antics and Tracy had bailed a couple times and not even made the playoffs!

Sorry but we might have been a playoff team with those guys but never a contender.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:02 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm answering the question posed..what else am i supposed to base my opinion on? The article you referred to was 4 years ago when Kobe made these comments and we already knew neither Vince nor Tracy was a winner. Vince had already begun his whiny antics and Tracy had bailed a couple times and not even made the playoffs!

Sorry but we might have been a playoff team with those guys but never a contender.
You're answering the question posed on where those guys are now which is based on them having split. That isn't answering the question. The question, what if VC never split is interesting to look at if TMac doesnt split. TMac carried the magic that year and the next in the playoffs. do you remember the lineup they had? the talent drop off from mcgrady was huge. bo outlaw? john ameachi? darryl armstrong? garrity? all role players. TMac played out of his mind in those series against the hornets. Vince played out of his mind in his third year. TMac re-ups with the raps that year, we beat philly hands down IMO. I also think it makes us a significant free agent destination that off-season. we dont throw so much at AD, alvin JYD, Hakeem because there's more options for us out there. Going deep in the playoffs with those two guys makes these guys winners. You also can speculate here about Vince's injuries. if we bring in another coach that stays on vince like oak, with another offensive weapon to defer to, the wear on his legs is less significant. one of the more overrated aspects of vince's game that was overshadowed by his dunking in his second year was his playmaking abilities.
Seeing him set up his teammates the way he did, especially TMac, had scouts feared and fans salivating about what this duo could've become TOGETHER.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:15 PM   #15 (permalink)
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You're answering the question posed on where those guys are now which is based on them having split. That isn't answering the question. The question, what if VC never split is interesting to look at if TMac doesnt split. TMac carried the magic that year and the next in the playoffs. do you remember the lineup they had? the talent drop off from mcgrady was huge. bo outlaw? john ameachi? darryl armstrong? garrity? all role players. TMac played out of his mind in those series against the hornets. Vince played out of his mind in his third year. TMac re-ups with the raps that year, we beat philly hands down IMO. I also think it makes us a significant free agent destination that off-season. we dont throw so much at AD, alvin JYD, Hakeem because there's more options for us out there. Going deep in the playoffs with those two guys makes these guys winners. You also can speculate here about Vince's injuries. if we bring in another coach that stays on vince like oak, with another offensive weapon to defer to, the wear on his legs is less significant. one of the more overrated aspects of vince's game that was overshadowed by his dunking in his second year was his playmaking abilities.
Seeing him set up his teammates the way he did, especially TMac, had scouts feared and fans salivating about what this duo could've become TOGETHER.
You're speculating that you think they would play differently had they stayed together and that's fine... but everyone KNOWS they're not winners. Making the playoffs doesn't make you a winner. Tim Duncan is a winner. David Robinson is a winner. Kobe Bryant and SHaq are winners. Michael Jordan is a winner... Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady are talented bums period. The only way to look at them is to look at how they play...how fragile they are, how they avoid contact how they demand to get traded when things aren't going their way...when the say 'whatever' or admit to dogging it ...all of which both have done.

Being a winner..a champion is as much in your head and your heart as the skills you possess and those guys are hollow in the chest when it comes to their teams..always have been, always will be. Sorry to burst your bubble
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:28 PM   #16 (permalink)
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You're speculating that you think they would play differently had they stayed together and that's fine...
yeah. the question, "what if" denotes that its purely speculative. i know they're not winners. that was established during their time after their third year. In Mcgrady's defense, he came out of high school and was buried his first two years in the league on the bench by darrell walker.
I personally think this "winners" are born stuff is bullshit. I think its as much as being surrounded with a culture of winning, and guys that want to play for a winner that determines who is and isnt a winner. The possibility of having that on the raps in this day, a nice blend of young talent and guys who knew how to win (willis, AD, Oak) presented the opportunity for these guys to mature and grow.
I see what you're saying and I agree with it. but I dont think its relevant because its based on what these guys have done to date, which is another question entirely.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:39 PM   #17 (permalink)
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yeah. the question, "what if" denotes that its purely speculative. i know they're not winners. that was established during their time after their third year. In Mcgrady's defense, he came out of high school and was buried his first two years in the league on the bench by darrell walker.
I personally think this "winners" are born stuff is bullshit. I think its as much as being surrounded with a culture of winning, and guys that want to play for a winner that determines who is and isnt a winner. The possibility of having that on the raps in this day, a nice blend of young talent and guys who knew how to win (willis, AD, Oak) presented the opportunity for these guys to mature and grow.
I see what you're saying and I agree with it. but I dont think its relevant because its based on what these guys have done to date, which is another question entirely.
I agree winners aren't born. It grows in you... you choose to embrace it. Those two chose to embrace tampons... hey it got them rich

I guess I dont' see the point of the question... the only evidence we have to speculate on how they would have done together is to take what we know about them and well...i've done that Actually when i go back and read the thread I dont' see anything about ignoring what we actually know about them and guessing what might have been if they hadn't become what they are... oh geez i just blew a brain cell. Anyways...Look at Vince with Jkidd... a superior player to McGrady... they haven't won. Look at Tracy with Yao... i'd take Yao over Vince any day... they haven't won.
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:48 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I think taking Vince out of your questions Lang, and inserting McGrady into there. That'd be interesting to think about. I remember reading an interview with Kobe in Slam about four years ago. He was talking about how committed he was to championships, and mentioned how he thought McGrady was an example of a player who wasn't. At the time, though no one saw Grant Hill being as injury prone as he was, Kobe commented that if TMac had stayed with Vince then we'd probably made it to the finals that year to meet the Lakers instead of the Sixers.
I think McGrady leaving was much more significant given the structure of the team, and the way both guys were playing at the time.
I remember reading that article as well. I think Kobe was on the cover of the magazine with the black and yellow retro Lakers jersey. There's some truth to what he was alluding to, however we'll never know what could have happened had both stayed and worked together.
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:50 PM   #19 (permalink)
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One thing is for sure - we've never recovered in terms of not having first-rate wing talent since T-Mac and Vince left the building. We've had excellent point guards and power players (Ford, Calderon, Jack, Bosh, Bargnani), but only recently we've had some good SFs (Marion, Turk) and we've not had a high-quality shooting guard since VC left. Not co-incidentally, that is our weakest position at the moment.

To answer the original question - I doubt we'd have won the East with Carter here the way things went between him and the organization.
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:53 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Yes. If Carter stayed around long enough for Bosh to be what he is. And we picked Shaq a few years back instead of him going to Phoenix. We would have won a championship. With Calderon/Carter/Bosh/Shaq and whoever else.

It's still possible though if we get him back (Vince not Shaq).
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