If I can change...and you can change...
Old 02-15-2013, 12:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Everybody can change. <Rocky>

Those of you who know me, know that I have had to pretty concrete positions in raptor lore.

1) Bargnani, is a star just used wrong.
2)Vince Carter is a giant piece of Shit

So I find myself here, after countless forum posts and arguments. Over 3 different versions of what is now this forum and I have come to terms with the unthinkable.

I was wrong. Lets take the first point.

1)Bargnani is a star

This man is one of the laziest players in the history of the game, blessed with a skill set so very few have but with the drive to perform of a used tampon. I think the frustrating thing is that we have all seen him at some point play very good man defense, be an excellent passer and in moments be and absolutely unguardable offensive threat. The below is something that very few people have the ability and foresight to do.



but what really happened?... There might be 100 threads on this site that I started with calling him awesome...or an all-star....hell I might have called him a future HOF'r. I have called people alot of names, and taken some witty shots when they suggested that Bargs was lazy. I used excuses like, "bosh's team...ball should go to Bargs first" or "hot in the first quarter and then doesnt get a pass", "plays good man defense it is the system that is failing him". Truth is, he is just fucking lazy. I have played some high level hockey in my day, and if I sat out with an injury and had an entire city saying..."see we are better off without you". When I came back I would be like a fucking house on fire....execution or not...shots not falling, fine...but in that scenario NOBODY would be able to question my effort. All I have done over the last few days is question his commitment and effort. Against the Knicks he had a change to foul people or just get in the way, and he chose the path of least resistance..

With that Andrea, I can longer be in your camp...I am humbled by my inaccuracy, and apologize to those I crapped on. Fuck You Andrea.

2) Vince Carter is a piece of Shit.

Hindsight can provide some valuable insight. VC gave up on the raps, VC acted like a child, VC had some bad body odor...this is all fact. Looking back though and on the eve of the dunk off, I remember that VC was just a kid. A kid with a way to involved mother, and an agent looking for more cash. Who really knows what Vince wanted but with the scenario he was in during the last half year in Toronto, I am not sure I would have handled it differently. I would have been concerned for my heath, The decision was already made by my people that I was to leave Toronto, I would not have given my everything either, I was getting paid regardless. If you asked Vince now, he would admit that he wishes things were different, that his legacy in Toronto was intact and his accomplishments recognized. For what he did for this city for me as a Raptor fan and for creating 1000's of Raps fans (Durant included) his jersey belongs in the rafters of the ACC. He was a pioneer a builder and a star, he was also a kid who made mistakes, one I am now willing to forgive.



So as Rocky said....If I can change, and you can change...everybody can change. I have done a 180, but I guess as you get older...your perspective also changes. The great Winston Churchill once said...
Quote:
"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."
I still can't fucking stand Al Horford or TJ Ford though....


-Benzo
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:49 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The return of the prodigal son...
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:18 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Great post.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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LOL love the used tampon line. You may have just won the internet with that one.

But seriously, Bargs is soft. Has no drive, no passion, no hunger. He always has that same stupid look on his face.

You said you play hockey? I've never played competitive hockey but living in TO you basically know everything about hockey whether you follow it or not. I've always had this theory in hockey so please hear me out and I'm not trying to start some debate on race, ethnicity, background, etc. But in hockey you're star player(s) have to be North American if you're gonna win a Cup. You're "leader" or "star" or "best player" cannot be anything else. You can have many great European players but for every Lidstrom there was an Yzerman, for every Selanne a Niedermayer, Pronger, etc. Look at the Canucks with the Sedins, or the Leafs with Sundin, Ovechkin Capitals (the Red Wings post Yzerman may have been the only exception to this much like the Spurs/Mavs). I think this is so because North Americans have a hunger for the Cup. Euros play very well in International competitions but for some reason it doesn't translate to the NHL Playoffs and if it does it's because there's already North Americans on the team.

So now you get to Bargs. He's very talented but he just doesn't care. It's like he doesn't understand that manhood, respect, toughness, are all parts of the NBA. NBA players talk. NBA players are part of a culture. Bargs is not part of that culture. The 4th quarter in the Knicks game where Bargs let Chandler have that free dunk.....really step back and look at that play. Do you think an Oakley, Garbo, Antonio Davis, JYD, Jermaine O'Neal.....probably even the other softest player we've had, Bosh, would've tried to block that or at least put Chandler on the line? Of course they would. JO used to say how you have to play ugly. Don't help opposing players when they fall. Do whatever it takes. We're talking about respect and manhood here. This is the NBA, guys are coming at you everyday. They want your job, they want your minutes, they want your spot, your shots, anything. They will kill to out perform you. On maybe one hand I can count the number of times Bargs has shown any emotion whatsoever on the court. I don't know why I compare him to Dirk sometimes because Bargs doesn't deserve that comparison, but even Dirk is always yelling and complaining about something. Gasol is always complaining (Pau). Bargs just floats. No pulse or anything.

Fair or unfair Bargs didn't choose to be 7ft. But he is 7ft, play like it. At times I wish he was 6'5", named JJ Redick, and just put him in the corner and fire away. Bargs is Kapono, very nice in certain situations but don't play him more than 5 minutes.

As to VC, God bless him. He put us on the map and actually got people excited about the team. I honestly thought for a moment we had the next MJ type 2 guard. Too bad that team never stuck together but would've been something special.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
The great Winston Churchill once said...

Quote:
"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."
RF Election!
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Election in an oligarchy? Kind of pointless, no?
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:50 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Ugh...brutal post.
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:53 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
Election in an oligarchy? Kind of pointless, no?
click the link if you are interested. if not, don't be a smartass.
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:57 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
click the link if you are interested. if not, don't be a smartass.
In fairness it doesn't look like a link, just that you are calling for an election. Does remind me of why I frequent here less.
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
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good times.
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:59 PM   #11 (permalink)
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hahaha

or, you just have a life...one day, I'm gonna get me one of those too.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:00 PM   #12 (permalink)
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hahaha

or, you just have a life...one day, I'm gonna get me one of those too.
Things change....kind of the point of my post...

Kid,
12 Hour days at work, working for the "man"
PVR raptor games and avoiding here for spoilers.

not much of a life....the 25 year old me would smack the shit out of the 35 year old me.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:04 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Job


fuck...killing me right now man. feels like im doing all the things youre supposed to.... meh.

anyhow, I actually always knew why you were never around...makes complete sense. And your little one...oh she is such a sweetie....has her moms looks clearly

Baby Wylde Stallyon? Chicks are what every band needs nowadays!
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Election in an oligarchy? Kind of pointless, no?
Sorry, didn't realize it was a link.

But what's really interesting is that Benzo got it.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:26 PM   #15 (permalink)
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This isn't Cold War Russia. Folks here aren't as free spirited and open minded. So I'm not changing my stance. Bargs is Magic Nowitzki. His career is a sample size for ants, so it's unfair to judge at this point. Give him the max and it'll start to click.

In all seriousness, my name is finstock, and I'm a recovering ardent Bargnani supporter. Looking back, I guess I was fooled by limited glimpses of brilliance, but also refused to accept the franchise squandering a #1 overall pick. It's comforting to know I can connect with others who share the emotional doldrums caused by this man.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:36 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Bargs was my fav player/Raptor till this year. I gave up on him too... kinda. HE WAS PLAYIN WITH THE FLUU, GIVE HIM ANOTHER CHANCE
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:30 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Man, I have always believed that this italian guy is loaded with talent and skill, but what went wrong ? It is not that easy to answer. It is just painful to think of AB as a player who came to the NBA and after some years he retired leaving no impact in every aspect of the game.
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:49 PM   #18 (permalink)
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His skill is highly overrated in retrospect. He's no different than Charlie V and a whole bunch of other players. He's only been put on a pedestal by Raptor fans whose emotions have been invested in his performance.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:13 PM   #19 (permalink)
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When I read the title of the post before clicking on it I thought that this would be something about why Bargs can suddenly change, etc. Instead, someone has made a realization.

I think I was most impressed with Bargs in the 2010 season. He looked like he was improving, playing solid, etc. However in the 2011 season my hope/cautious optimism in him just derailed completely. Last season he impressed in that stretch however I took it in perspective because a) it was a small sample size and b) Casey didn't know the physical limitations that you have to consider regarding Bargs (case in point, he returns from injury and the raps beat utah and phoenix twice however he played about 40 minutes I believe). This season was the make or break.

Another thing which I posted a while ago is the tiers of bigs. There is a tier which is the highest where a big excels in pretty much all areas of the game, usually efficient on offense and takes a high usage. They also are solid to spectacular on the glass. They are also excellent help defenders and man2man as well. They can also impact the team through their mere presence. These guys are typically franchise players and are . So, TD, KG and DH12 (however the guys has some personality issues).

The next tier is a really wide array where it splits into two (most of the time these players are not franchise players but can be great 2nd options or defensive stalwarts). One side of this tier usually has bigs who are very good offensively while taking on a high usage, can be below average - very good defensively and are decent - very good on the glass. They may be second options on offense or share 1st option on offense duties with a guard or wing. So, Bosh would fit into this category perfectly. The 2nd type of player in this tier is usually very good defensively (typically as a rim protector), are efficient on offense but not an option but know their role and play within themselves. They are usually very good - great rebounders. So, a guy who would fit perfectly into this is Noah or Big Ben. Then there is arguably subtiers for both of these splits. For example, in the more offensive-oriented tier a player may be really crappy defensively but they are really good on the glass and shoot well enough and play an important role offensively so their place on the team is warranted. For the other side's subtier a perfect example may be like Amir.

Now, the last tier, typically this tier has players who can dominate one side of the game or be very good at a single role. For example, a great rebounder - Reggie Evans. Defensive stoppers who may just protect the rim. Lastly, players who may be very good to ok on offense. So, Novak plays a single role, for example. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) Bargs is part of this tier. Now, Bargs unlike Novak, obviously has more capabilities on offense but his help d isn't passable, and his rebounding is a disgrace. He also doesn't shoot efficiently enough to warrant playing very high minutes. Now, if Bargs was able to say, rebound ok - very good he could be part of that tier above that has players who have a big role on offense (possibly shooting efficiently) and rebound the ball but may play no d/bad d. Some may say Boozer is part of said tier. If someone can name one starting big for a playoff team who played 30-40 mpg while playing as an option on offense while rebounding as poor as Bargs does while having his help d and decent man2man d, please share, because I can't think of any.

(RE: I can't remember word per word my post from like a year ago but this was essentially what I was saying. Also, note how I said how there is arguably subtiers, I said arguably because I don't remember from the original post if I had the subtiers of those splits. Also, sorry for making anyone read through so much.)

Last edited by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!!; 02-15-2013 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:23 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Agree with this. Don't agree with the quote at all.

I find it strange that you (Benzo) put the quote after stating that your getting older and your opinions are changing. I don't know your age, but if you are over thirty, your epiphany directly contradicts the quote. But either way really, Winston was saying that your opinions solidify as you grow older, which needless to say, yours changed rather than solidifying.
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