HUGE Surprise!
Old 08-24-2011, 07:09 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Jose Calderon ranks 29 outta 30 as a defender at PG! lol Seriously though, a really good article on bleacherreport.com ranks all the starting PGs in the league defensively. Really well thought out arguments with a few major surprises (like Steve Nash and Chris Paul). Sorry to spoil it for those wondering where Jose ranks lol.

check it out....


Defensively Ranking Every Starting Point Guard in the NBA | Bleacher Report


I'm not saying that I agree with everything but it makes for a good read anyway.

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Old 08-24-2011, 07:12 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Bleacher Report is usually the most accurate and trusted source of NBA overage and analysis for almost all NBA statics and Scouting personnel.

No really, it is. I read it on Wiki!

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Old 08-24-2011, 07:14 PM   #3 (permalink)
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read the article 1st SJ
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:16 PM   #4 (permalink)
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theres definitely good and bad writers/basketball minds there, just as there is here. are u against looking at things from a different perspective just because someone isnt an "expert"? Then what r we even doing here? if u disagree afterwards then comment....
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:23 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I dont need to.

I already know he isn't good.



I just like ripping the Bleacher report. Hell the guy knows what I'm saying, the site is so bad he spends the first 1500 words explaining why people need to read the article.

I read a bit. It wasn't bad. I liked that he had the nuts (why nobody else does I don't know) to put Paul way far down, and he also had the minerals to put Nash at 7, because, despite the ridiculous and racist bullshit that is perpetuated about Nash, he is a very savvy defender.

Calderon.... is bad. His body quit 4 years ago. I thought for two of those he could rebound.... but nope, he's finished.

As for you...rocks. Barracuda tells me you hate me.

I disagree, I actually think you're totally on my Jock.

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Old 08-24-2011, 07:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
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lol never told barracuda that i hate u, how very perceptive! lol

no ur ok SJ, seem 2 know ur shit sometimes anyway
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:27 PM   #7 (permalink)
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fuckin cracked me up with that penis shit yesterday, i'll giv u that
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:27 PM   #8 (permalink)
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thats about right... its like anything in life, the key is to know what you know bang on, and to be able to fake the rest at least 80% of the time.



But honestly, I didnt read all the player descriptions, but I did read the beginning of the article. I liked it.
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
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ya i didnt even read em all. did read most of em though, just didnt need any clarification as to why Derek Fisher didnt crack the top 20.
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Most of that ranking fails the eye test. Rose no.1? He's barely above average defensively. His teammates are so good. Even Noah helps him out on the perimeter.
It's a nice analysis and approach none the less.

That said, even the most silly article can be made look smart nowadays with Synergy Sports Pro. Nerf that tool. And we can't even double check it and find the holes. Not like the usual fan has access to it.
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Old 08-24-2011, 09:23 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Rondo has a great defense around him, do u disagree that he belongs in the top 2? I actually think he makes some pretty good points w/ regards to rose. Im not sure that I rank him 1st, but Im not really sure that I dont either. Hes a huge part of a great defence which also features Carlos Boozer - give the man some credit.

What do u mean by holes? Stats that he couldve used but didnt in order to illustrate certain points? Or that he may have changed the actual numbers themselves? I think he legitimately tried to do the best he could on it. And Im sure someone wouldve called him on it if he was manipulating the numbers in any way - its not that rare to find someone with synergy sports.

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Old 08-24-2011, 09:26 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
Most of that ranking fails the eye test. Rose no.1? He's barely above average defensively. His teammates are so good. Even Noah helps him out on the perimeter.
It's a nice analysis and approach none the less.

That said, even the most silly article can be made look smart nowadays with Synergy Sports Pro. Nerf that tool. And we can't even double check it and find the holes. Not like the usual fan has access to it.
The only reason Chicago is better defensively now is the system under the new HC.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:19 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by canada_rocks2369 View Post
Rondo has a great defense around him, do u disagree that he belongs in the top 2?
Rondo is the best defender on that team at this point when he's healthy. Watch the games.


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Originally Posted by canada_rocks2369 View Post
And Im sure someone wouldve called him on it if he was manipulating the numbers in any way - its not that rare to find someone with synergy sports.
Sure, there's a ton of SSPro users writing on this forum.

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I think he legitimately tried to do the best he could on it.
Well good for you I guess.
See, that's my point. If we all had SSPro this might actually be a smart discussion. It's kind of cool when a database available to most bigger media places is available for everyone.
Now all we have is "I think so because.. umm.. I just think so... because... ummm... He seems like a guy who legitimately does stuff." Very deep.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:22 AM   #14 (permalink)
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The only reason Chicago is better defensively now is the system under the new HC.
Sure, Asik, Gibson, Noah, Deng and Bogans being good individual defenders got nothing to do with it.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:41 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Statistics cannot do justice to the proper measure of defensive abilities. Mostly because it just simply isn't an individual pursuit. This article doesn't bug me in that it uses statistics. As a starting point I can see them being relevant. My problem is that this uses numbers as the starting point and the inescapable conclusion, when in fact there is a great need for proper interpretation, and the allowance of a good deal of variability. To miss that so utterly is to lose a large sense of how the game can be appreciated.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:16 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I agree with LX

It's hard to make top 10, top 30 or whatever in any team sport. Usually the analysis is best done if a player has different players around him from year to year. I.e. Nash might have numbers from Dallas to Phoenix that are similar.... Billups etc.

A guy who is smart can really play defence, yet the numbers might look bad. At his peak, Nash LOOKED like a pylon, which for him was fine. His guy might have got off on him, but his guy also didn't get his guys involved. I bet if you checked, his opposing PG's hard high point low to average assist totals, while he had high point, and HOF assist numbers.

Defence is difficult to rate in that sometimes even a clever glance can keep a guy from swinging the ball a certain way, and, if that glance as to ensure that player X didn't get the ball and heat up, then that was a damn good defensive play that will never show up on a sheet.

On the flipside, stats, drawn out, don't lie either. San Antonio, and guys like Battier and the Red Rocket illustrate this. But think about this, and I am gonna live or die by this....

You can play the numbers, and you will have success. But number will only get you farther ahead over 82 games. if the goal is the NBA trophy, you had better be damn sure that you have guys that will be able to make that one big play. So Nash, you know he can make that one big steal down the stretch, Rondo and Rose, both awesome, at this point in their careers are capable of playing massive in a pinch and can block you the crucial shot with a clock running down in game 6 away from home. This is what wins game, and wins trophy's. Intangibles, character.
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Old 08-25-2011, 11:25 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Rondo is the best defender on that team at this point when he's healthy. Watch the games. .
KG is still a good defender, Pierce is still a good defender, Allen has gotten very smart on D (especially in that system), and theyve had Perkins for most of Rondo's career. Yes, Rondo is best defender on that team now, but its not like hes been carrying that team defensively. And dont act like just because Rose has Joakim Noah that all his defensive contributions dont matter. He has Boozer in his line-up; is there anyone on the Celtics as bad defensively? You're using a double standard: Rondo's good D makes his teams D good, but Rose's D is good because of his teams good D. I do watch the games, and I've always thought Rose was underrated defensively. The fact that this article supports that theory is icing on the cake but certainly not the basis for my argument.

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Sure, there's a ton of SSPro users writing on this forum. .
Maybe not here, but he didnt write that article here, did he? Just because everything doesnt cater to u doesnt mean that it deserves to be dismissed. Get SSPro and check the numbers yourself if ur paranoid but honestly, who really cares enough about this shit to do a fake 40-page article just to convince a couple thousand random people that Steve Nash is better than Chris Paul on defense. It just doesnt seem plausible.


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Well good for you I guess.
See, that's my point. If we all had SSPro this might actually be a smart discussion. It's kind of cool when a database available to most bigger media places is available for everyone.
Now all we have is "I think so because.. umm.. I just think so... because... ummm... He seems like a guy who legitimately does stuff." Very deep
.
Right, assuming ur paranoid ass is right and he manipulated the numbers as part of his evil master plan to make sure D-Rose, the MVP, gets enough credit where credit is due, then yes, we should all have SSPro as to make this a "smart" discussion. Now back in the real world, where most people have jobs and things to do, the premise that someone would reallistically spend 20 full hrs doing up a huge article filled with false information, and then thoroughly explain why each ranking is where, just to impose is opinion on a very limited audience is ridiculous. So ya, I... um... just dont think he did....umm...sorry.

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Old 08-25-2011, 11:42 AM   #18 (permalink)
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You're using a double standard: Rondo's good D makes his teams D good, but Rose's D is good because of his teams good D.
No, I simply watch more basketball. Defensively Rondo is better than Rose by a mile. I think I won't argue on this anymore, I feel like wasting time.

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Get SSPro and check the numbers yourself if ur paranoid but honestly

Right, assuming ur paranoid ass is right
Heh. Don't be such a baby.
I made a very simple point: this discussion would get much deeper if everyone had SSPro resourse.
I'm not saying the writer cheats. That's your idea.
I'm just saying that more info would make it a smarter discussion.

You kind of prove my point by throwing around dumb immature insults. Instead of discussing the topic I now have some kid calling me a paranoid ass.
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Old 08-25-2011, 11:53 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Statistics cannot do justice to the proper measure of defensive abilities. Mostly because it just simply isn't an individual pursuit. This article doesn't bug me in that it uses statistics. As a starting point I can see them being relevant. .
couldnt agree more - i just felt that this writer made the best attempt ive seen so far at actually quantifying defensive abilities. this is definitely not an exact science or a perfect method, but it is interesting to read with plenty of statistics that people like valanciunasboy and myself dont have access to.

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My problem is that this uses numbers as the starting point and the inescapable conclusion, when in fact there is a great need for proper interpretation, and the allowance of a good deal of variability. To miss that so utterly is to lose a large sense of how the game can be appreciated
.
yes, he does use the stats to sort the players then leaves them that way, but i believe he disagrees with that as much as u do. all he does is explain the methods used, sort em based solely on that criteria, then explain why they are where they are. he even says himself that he disagrees with some of the rankings - he just punched in the numbers and hit sort on a computer. he also goes into his own observations about each ranking from watchin hrs of film on nothing but defense. he starts discussing how trades influenced so-and-so's ranking or how injuries factored in. many of the rankings didnt require the additional effort, but those which went against popular (or even his own) opinion were explained in great deal. I actually like that he didnt try to re-rank them based on additional factors because it wouldnt have been as objective. this way, we can drawn our own conclusions without getting hung up on the number beside each players name.

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Old 08-25-2011, 11:59 AM   #20 (permalink)
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i think we all use really big words and analysis for things that are much more simple once you're there in the gym with these guys.

Great thread though
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