How to fix the raptors [HARD TO DO]
Old 12-12-2009, 12:34 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default How to fix the raptors [HARD TO DO]

1. Trade turkoglu for an ELITE perimeter defender (target teams who need his shot creating ability, like houston). We would need someone like battier in return - they won't give it to us, but maybe we could bribe them if the fall our of the playoff hunt

2. acquire a VERY GOOD perimeter defender at the 2

3. draft a very quick point guard (aaron brooks) who can stay in front of people and create shots. We'd have to live with the risk of big PGs posting up and there's the risk of getting a knucklehead (see TJ) who can drive, but won't get rid of the ball.

4. Get a top defensive coach (JVG)

I think a team like this could be top 15, maybe even top 10 in defense. By containing penetration, our lack of shot blocking would not be so exposed, and both Bosh and Bargnani are good individual defenders. We'd have enough 3pt shooters and shot creating (via the PG spot), and with andrea and Bosh creating matchup nighmares, we could remain a top 10 or better offensive team. That would give us a chance to at least compete and win 50 or more games every season.
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:39 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Good start.

I would ditch Bargs too though.

I'm still not convinced that a Bosh/Bargs combo is a winning formula.
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:40 AM   #3 (permalink)
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you better be reading this BC!!!

and make him our coach.(JVG) he would make our players play defense!

hell, just by being honest, he's better than triano "oh we had a few lapses" triano
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:51 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Since Calderon is out I think there will be trades happening before the deadline..
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:54 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Good start.

I would ditch Bargs too though.

I'm still not convinced that a Bosh/Bargs combo is a winning formula.
it's not about "ditching", it's about improving. What can you get for Bargnani right now that will make this team better? You're not getting lopez or gasol if that's what you're thinking. You might be getting chandler or okafor - players who had their own share of problems and who are good defenders, but not great (chandler is very good, but he's unreliable and a horrible offensive player).
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:54 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I always said we needed 3 defenders if we wanted Bosh/Bargs as well.

I had Hinrich (possible), Raja Bell (Charlotte wanted to get rid of him) and Ariza/Marion (thought we'd get one of those instead of Turk).

Hinrich/Bell/Marion/Bosh/Bargs... That's a good starting lineup, you get offence, defence and toughnes.
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:57 AM   #7 (permalink)
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it's not about "ditching", it's about improving. What can you get for Bargnani right now that will make this team better? You're not getting lopez or gasol if that's what you're thinking. You might be getting chandler or okafor - players who had their own share of problems and who are good defenders, but not great (chandler is very good, but he's unreliable and a horrible offensive player).
Bargnani still has value in this league. He's a 7fter who's avging 17 + 7(?) and he's young.. and relatively cheap. I have to believe that there are teams that would be intrigued by his potential.

I'd argue that Bargs would be easier to move than Hedo at this point.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:00 AM   #8 (permalink)
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our guys just have to listen to chris paul. drink three glasses of low fat milk each day and we are good to go.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:04 AM   #9 (permalink)
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it's not about moving for the sake of moving. Of course you can move bargnani, even with his contract, he's still a top young prospect. Howver, his defense is preventing him from being an elite young prospect like lopez, oden, bynum or gasol.

Which means you have three scenarios - get an unhappy veteran in return (say duncan if SAS fails). That gives you a 1-2 years window and there's not a ton of options out there. Duncan is far fetched, and he's by far the best option.

Option #2 is to get a good defensive C with problems (chandler etc). This will not improve the current't team defense all that much, it would probably bring us to the 45-48 wins plateu with almost no chance of ever getting better.

Option #3 is to trade him for quality draft picks (#2-#5). You are not getting the #1 in this draft. This is the worse option if you want to keep bosh.

I'd rather take my chances that bargani continues to improve, he's done it every year, and the next summer he won't have international play, so he'll be able to focus on improving his strength and defensive game.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:08 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bmats7 View Post
I always said we needed 3 defenders if we wanted Bosh/Bargs as well.

I had Hinrich (possible), Raja Bell (Charlotte wanted to get rid of him) and Ariza/Marion (thought we'd get one of those instead of Turk).

Hinrich/Bell/Marion/Bosh/Bargs... That's a good starting lineup, you get offence, defence and toughnes.
raja and hinrich are not elite. They are good, raja is too old though. You still need a an elite defender. Ariza was probably not an option and marion we tried, and that team was not elite. It was better, but probably not more than 44 wins. And with marion you are guaranteed to have a massive dropoff in 2 years or less.

You can't just put any defender on this team - you need at least one ELITE defender. There are maybe 5 of these in the league right now.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:08 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Oh I understand what you're saying.

The difference between us is that I think that Bargs may have more value than you may think. It may not be about trading him for another big man.... it could be about trading him for a GUARD that makes us better.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:12 AM   #12 (permalink)
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raja and hinrich are not elite. They are good, raja is too old though. You still need a an elite defender. Ariza was probably not an option and marion we tried, and that team was not elite. It was better, but probably not more than 44 wins. And with marion you are guaranteed to have a massive dropoff in 2 years or less.

You can't just put any defender on this team - you need at least one ELITE defender. There are maybe 5 of these in the league right now.
In reality BC messed us this offseason. The best thing that he could have done was to go out and get/keep the best defenders that he could rather than grabbing more shooters.. and more shooting BIG MEN at that.

I remember when we traded Charlie V and everyone said how it was a good trade because he and Bosh had no future together since they played the same position... and how it was pointless because he didn't play good D... and then we went straight out and got ANOTHER player just like him to pair with Bosh AGAIN.

Does that make sense to you?
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:12 AM   #13 (permalink)
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raja and hinrich are not elite. They are good, raja is too old though. You still need a an elite defender. Ariza was probably not an option and marion we tried, and that team was not elite. It was better, but probably not more than 44 wins. And with marion you are guaranteed to have a massive dropoff in 2 years or less.

You can't just put any defender on this team - you need at least one ELITE defender. There are maybe 5 of these in the league right now.
Um. Raja Bell has been on the 1st and 2nd all NBA defensive teams. And Hinrich i believe made the 2nd team as well one year.

That's elite, cheap, awesome defenders who are tough as hell (Hinrich fought Rondo, Bell always chirped Kobe). We need those guys to win. And those guys are reasonable and affordable. But everyone wants to go after the big play all clutch Hedo Turkoglu, a 7ft SG with a rare skill set... screw that. Let's get some guys who can defend.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:14 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I'd argue that Bargs would be easier to move than Hedo at this point.
Then lets do a Bargs+Hedo package trade and get us someone ^_^
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:15 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Oh I understand what you're saying.

The difference between us is that I think that Bargs may have more value than you may think. It may not be about trading him for another big man.... it could be about trading him for a GUARD that makes us better.
and play amir at C?

I think it's a mistake to trade bargnani, unless you get a very good veteran who makes it possible to truly win now. Bargnani and derozan are the only players with upshot on this team - trade one or both and you have to become a contender right away, or you risk becoming a 48 wins team for the next 5 years of Bosh's prime.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:17 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Um. Raja Bell has been on the 1st and 2nd all NBA defensive teams. And Hinrich i believe made the 2nd team as well one year.

That's elite, cheap, awesome defenders who are tough as hell (Hinrich fought Rondo, Bell always chirped Kobe). We need those guys to win. And those guys are reasonable and affordable. But everyone wants to go after the big play all clutch Hedo Turkoglu, a 7ft SG with a rare skill set... screw that. Let's get some guys who can defend.
gary payton was even better
he was a good defender, but he's old and doesn't have a lot left

the reason we went after hedo is we needed somebody to create shots. What you're proposing is just a recipe for mediocrity. We'd be better, but never great, and as raja (or marion or whoever) gets 1-2 years older, we'd slowly slump towards below .500.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:18 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Then lets do a Bargs+Hedo package trade and get us someone ^_^
you're not getting an elite player without trading bosh
you can't trade two good players for a very good one, nobody does that unless it's an unhappy superstar who wanted a trade.

You can package calderon, Bargnani and hedu and you'd still not get lopez.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:49 AM   #18 (permalink)
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trade everyone except Bosh and hope Bosh stays in Toronto
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Old 12-12-2009, 02:12 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Toronto Raptor is basically screwed; I cant wait for the 6month to come soon so we can get it over with the whole Bosh leaving or staying thing. So basically if Bosh goes this team will not have anyone to be leader and screw Bargs I wont accept him in a life time unless he show improvement and becomes Dirk in 6 months which will never happen.
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Old 12-12-2009, 02:41 AM   #20 (permalink)
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When U will Raptors to be an elite team then trade Calderon and Bargs with a good defensive Point Guard and a very good Center
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