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-   -   Honeymoon over for Jamario? (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/honeymoon-over-jamario-112.html)

Dr. J. Naismith 12-09-2007 03:09 PM

Honeymoon over for Jamario?
 
I don't know about you guys, but I think his game as regressed significantly over the last 5 or so games. I don't know if its fatigue from the amount of minutes he's been playing or that teams are learning to adapt to him now. He just hasn't been that in your face defender that we saw in the first 12 or so games and offensively just isn't anywhere close in being effective. :(

Anyhow, does anyone think its time to reward Delfino for his outstanding play so far this season and pencil him in to start at SF for the next little bit. Moon's an engery type player much like Humphries is and having him come off the bench now might be a nice change while allowing Carlos an opportunity to shine in the starting line-up. I mean, offensively he's an improvement ten fold to Moon, and defensively he might not get a ton of blocks, but I think he awareness on the defensive side is almost better than Moon hence why Delfino gets as many steals as he does.

Thoughts? :confused:

insight_tor 12-09-2007 03:21 PM

Moon was overplayed with Andrea and Chris out, I see no reason to fault him, just give the extra-minutes to Delfino would be enough! Moon is a nice surprise which gives Raptors something they didn't had for a long time: an athletic forward which is willing to play defense and looking for blocks. WHo really concern me is Anthony Parker: he is up and down, one game plays like a start the next game he is just under average. I hope, Parker will not became Mo Pete reloaded in terms of consistency!

Belsius 12-09-2007 03:57 PM

I really dont care who starts, I love both of them, although I think Delfino brings more things to the court. I just dont want to put too much pressure on Moon.
He might be tired so let him rest a little and take same pressure off him. He is still a rookie isnt he.

MikeToronto 12-09-2007 05:19 PM

As soon as Bargnani is back as our starting 5, Moon is guaranteed as starting 3 spot. With Rasho being fairly ineffective from the outside (and Ford starting at PG :( ), Moon's role on offence has been ill-defined.

He is still quite a defensive presence.

ClingRap 12-09-2007 06:02 PM

I think at this stage of his career, you're rolling the dice with Moon offensively because they run nothing for him. a lot of plays come off broken ones, stick backs or moving without the ball. i dont think he has the confidence yet to take guys off the dribble on a consistent basis as one on one, i see him rush things. some nights he'll fill the stat sheet, others, not so much.
i prefer to look at what he does defensively first, anything else offensively is a bonus. especially with bargs and bosh coming back.

BballWatcher 12-09-2007 09:57 PM

Moon is a perfect fit for our starting lineup, and Delfino for the bench.

Delfino brings EVERYTHING to the bench: scoring, good ball handling, savvy defense. However, he's not an allstar, and he fits in perfectly with the second unit.

As Mike said, Jamario fits well with the starting unit, particularly when Bargnani comes back as we have enough shooting in there already; with Delfino in there as well there wouldn't be enough touches to go around.

'trane 12-09-2007 11:04 PM

i like carlos off the bench. instant energy and hustle. he was a great spark for the raps today.

fancylad 12-10-2007 07:47 AM

yes, like most here say, Carlos is best as part of the second unit. Same with Kapono. These two really give us the depth that we need when the bench is called upon.

Keep Moon as a starter and if he comes out flat, then take him out early (just like Mitchell did in the third agaisnt Houston).

I have no doubt that Moon will continue to stifle most teams' big scorers as the season goes on.

Sick, Wicked and Nasty! 12-10-2007 08:15 AM

Let's not panic on Jamario....what rookie doesn't come in and struggle for a time. As long as he's still going for the ball on the boards and playing defense i'm not worried a bit. Carlos as mentioned is everything we need off the bench..so if it ain't broke..dont' f*ck with it :)

moremilk 12-10-2007 01:19 PM

the only problem I see is having Rasho + Moon in the first unit. That's 2 spots where we're not getting much offense. It might be a better idea to play andreea + moon together, either as starters, or in the second unit. Andreea + kapono + delfino + calderon = too much offense off the bench.

Maybe, depending on nightly matchups, if they have a quality big, play rasho + delfino, if they have a quality s. forward, play moon and bargnani.

Sick, Wicked and Nasty! 12-10-2007 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moremilk (Post 1173)
the only problem I see is having Rasho + Moon in the first unit. That's 2 spots where we're not getting much offense. It might be a better idea to play andreea + moon together, either as starters, or in the second unit. Andreea + kapono + delfino + calderon = too much offense off the bench.

Maybe, depending on nightly matchups, if they have a quality big, play rasho + delfino, if they have a quality s. forward, play moon and bargnani.

Well...there are numbers to back up the opposite. If you look at the detailed breakdown of points scored for and against by lineup... Moon is in the lineups with the highest plus/minus points scored, and while he's also in a couple bad ones, those are linesup that had either Baston or Graham in them... which would explain the anomoly.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708TOR2.HTM

For all you Calderon lovers, note how many of those top producing lineups TJ Ford is in ;) The biggest plus minus line with significant minutes played together is Ford, Parker, Moon, Bosh and Nesterovic.

moremilk 12-10-2007 05:25 PM

still - sometimes it's easier to see things with the naked eye - moon has no offence, rasho has no offence. Play them together and you have no offensive production from 40% of your starting lineup ...

ClingRap 12-10-2007 05:30 PM

as interesting as the +/- numbers are, it doesn't say much about whom they're matched up against. its all contextual and there are way too many things that factor why a particular line-up works over one that doesn't. injuries to key guys, both on your team and opposing ones. the way the game is being called dictates the flow of the game quite frequently. is a particular opponent utilizing a zone defense more often? is it a close game or garbage time?

raptor123 12-10-2007 05:43 PM

No matter how you look at it Jamario Moon is a great addition to our team.He has a great attitude and is a fun guy to watch, he has the hops and can play d. Any else he brings to the table is a bonus.

Sick, Wicked and Nasty! 12-11-2007 08:02 AM

Moremilk and Clingrap, not to call you guys out but you can't just write off stats like that either... those lineups comprise significant minutes and any lineup with Moon and Rasho with TJ means it's starting the game against the other team's best! If you watch Rasho and Moon with a naked eye you must see that when Rasho gets the ball in the low post, more than 50% of the time he converts. He actually has very good hands and some nice moves and isn't utilized much because we need to get Bosh going early. I'm not saying he's a world crusher but the guy can put up points if you need him to.

As for Moon, hes' got some offensive game but he hasn't gotten comfortable yet. Coach is on him to drive and get fouls but he hasn't responded yet... he settles for shots usually in the flow but i think you'll see him get more comfortable as the season goes on. Right now he knows his minutes are a product of his defense and he's clearly focusing most of his energy on that.

Ultimately, when Andrea is ready you'll likely see him and Moon in the starting rotation and the combination is an intriguing one, but for now I like the smarts, defense and patience that Rasho and MOon bring to the starting five to help get TJ and Chris going early.

moremilk 12-11-2007 01:33 PM

yes, you can write off stats - or, to be exact, you can write off a particular interpretation of the stats. If player A has more rebounds (per minute) than player B, it doesn't necessarily means that he's a better rebounder. I can give you lots of examples if you want, and the same goes for assists. +/- is not even an individual stat.

The reality is that right now Moon has 0 offensive game, he doesn't penetrate at all, can't create his own shot, and his shooting is below average. He is extremely good in defence though, and in a way he's the opposite of Andreea. Rasho is competent in the low-post, not a major threat by any means - but we barely ever throw the ball to him there. Rasho is our best defender on bigs though, by a large margin.

So with Moon and Rasho you get tough defense and little offense. If you combine either one with Andreea, you would get a lot more offense, that hopefully will more than compensate. When we have moon and rasho together, there's almost no ball movement, even if TJ would feel like passing (he usually doesn't). With TJ, Moon and Rasho we have room for just one 3pt shooter, which makes CB's job a lot tougher.
And, if we play against a big center like shaq, yao, howard, we need rasho inside, otherwise we can probably do away with Andreea, because his weaknes on help D is overcompensated by Moon's ability to leap and block shots ...


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