Holy McKenzie: I enjoy watching this team play w/o Bargnani - Page 7
Old 04-06-2011, 01:33 PM   #121 (permalink)
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And as I mentioned last night - the defense gets scattered and confused when there is such a definitive need to overhelp in the paint. One really weak piece makes everyone weaker. Remove the weak link and you've got a chance to be somewhat organized and make the most of the few strengths out there. I'd say that is pretty much how it played out last night.
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:08 PM   #122 (permalink)
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i don't know how +/- shows the whole team plays like shit....
if Bargnani lets his man score, everyone on the floor for the raps get -2, so... ya
if you watched the game (you still haven't said if you did), the young guys actually tried to make it a game. if only looking at the 2nd half it was quite competitive.
bargnani shouldn't even have played....he basically ruined the outcome of the game even by just playing 8 minutes
thats actually really hard to do
well you mentioned it to make Bargs look bad so i just continued, i personally dont like the stat.

using the logic of +/- u mentioned regarding bargs, yes it makes the team look bad when most of the players besides Bargs also had a bad +/-, especially the two johnsons i mentioned who were close to or exceeded Bargs +/-, especially considering they had the remainder of the game to correct their +/- via better play or better overall team play. lets face it, with or without bargs, team is shit atm. too many people on the forum scapegoat him for our troubles...
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:20 PM   #123 (permalink)
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well you mentioned it to make Bargs look bad so i just continued, i personally dont like the stat.

using the logic of +/- u mentioned regarding bargs, yes it makes the team look bad when most of the players besides Bargs also had a bad +/-, especially the two johnsons i mentioned who were close to or exceeded Bargs +/-, especially considering they had the remainder of the game to correct their +/- via better play or better overall team play. lets face it, with or without bargs, team is shit atm. too many people on the forum scapegoat him for our troubles...
u clearly dont' get it.....
by just looking at +/- alone you can't see who's at fault because, like i said earlier, it could be ABs fault for letting his man score but everyone will get -2. which was why i asked if you watched the game (still no answer)

bolded point:
makes no sense
all that says is, Bargs dragged the teams +/- down during his 8 minutes and after that the two johnsons played at an even +/-
for them to "correct" it, they would have had to comeback and tie the game. whereas they just kept the deficit about the same
nothing wrong with that
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:26 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Well for me, Bargs was the ineffective one. If you're team's "leader" can't play defense or set an aggressive tone during the game, then your team will follow suit and not play aggressively offensively or defensively. The only times we've won with Bargs is when we either carried him when he slumped, or when he was being aggressive and shooting well. Players feed off their team leaders during games.
This team's leader is Calderon.
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:58 PM   #125 (permalink)
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This team's leader is Calderon.
Which is ONE reason why we suck balls.
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:05 PM   #126 (permalink)
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This team's leader is Calderon.
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Which is ONE reason why I want to suck his balls.
Fixed.
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:11 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Which is ONE reason why we suck balls.


Yeah, THAT's one of the reasons. Gimme a break.
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:13 PM   #128 (permalink)
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Yeah, THAT's one of the reasons. Gimme a break.
Calderon, a player that can't play defense being a leader isn't problematic at all to you? I didn't say he was THE reason, just ONE of...
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:17 PM   #129 (permalink)
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u clearly dont' get it.....
by just looking at +/- alone you can't see who's at fault because, like i said earlier, it could be ABs fault for letting his man score but everyone will get -2. which was why i asked if you watched the game (still no answer)

bolded point:
makes no sense
all that says is, bargs dragged the teams +/- down during his 8 minutes and after that the two johnsons played at an even +/-
for them to "correct" it, they would have had to comeback and tie the game.
whereas they just kept the deficit about the same
nothing wrong with that
did i watch it?:

I watched bits and pieces, the jay game was on.......

first bolded part:

ok so wouldnt that mean if amir for instace screwed up, the -2 would apply to bargs. therefore, the same could be said for each player that fucks up....whats ur point? unless EVERY SINGLE PLAY was Bargs fault, i dont see the reasoning for attacking him ALONE and using his +/- for the purpose of ur argument when u just downplayed it...

second bolded part:

no it wasnt necessarily all AFTER that, they played DURING Bargs -18 at the start of the game so to say they KEPT the deficit about the same is just wrong, they contributed to the deficit as much as bargs. and to blame EVERY SINGLE DEFENSIVE MISHAP on Bargs is just silly. the beginning of the game EVERYBODY was playing lazy defense, tons of open shots/layups, Bargs wasnt guarding carmelo hitting all those threes....so if your going to criticize Bargs thats fine, but to blame everything solely on him even tho its a TEAM sport just to justify ur hate for Bargs is wrong

that all make sense?
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:22 PM   #130 (permalink)
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Meh. At this point I look at Bargs in the same manner that I looked at Hedo last year and VC right before he was dealt..... talented player that just isn't worth the trouble.

We're sitting at 21 wins right now.

We'll probably end up with what? 23? 24? If we get rid of Bargs it's not like we're going to win 5-10 games next season lol.... we're pretty much at bottom now so I'd rather get rid of a guy who's incapable (or unwilling) to play D and rebound and give those minutes to guys who want to FIGHT on both ends.
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:32 PM   #131 (permalink)
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did i watch it?:

I watched bits and pieces, the jay game was on.......

first bolded part:

ok so wouldnt that mean if amir for instace screwed up, the -2 would apply to bargs. therefore, the same could be said for each player that fucks up....whats ur point? unless EVERY SINGLE PLAY was Bargs fault, i dont see the reasoning for attacking him ALONE and using his +/- for the purpose of ur argument when u just downplayed it...

second bolded part:

no it wasnt necessarily all AFTER that, they played DURING Bargs -18 at the start of the game so to say they KEPT the deficit about the same is just wrong, they contributed to the deficit as much as bargs. and to blame EVERY SINGLE DEFENSIVE MISHAP on Bargs is just silly. the beginning of the game EVERYBODY was playing lazy defense, tons of open shots/layups, Bargs wasnt guarding carmelo hitting all those threes....so if your going to criticize Bargs thats fine, but to blame everything solely on him even tho its a TEAM sport just to justify ur hate for Bargs is wrong
that all make sense?
1) yes it could, thats why u used the plus/minus stat as reference and from watching the game you know really who's at fault.

2) i don't understand, why is this so hard to understand? yes they played during Bargs -18. so they all got -18. then Bargs sat the rest of the game leaving him with -18. and the 2 johnsons played the rest of the game and finished with relatively the same +/-. so if u take away the 1st 8 minutes (that Bargs played), it was a close game

3) its a team sport, so if ONE person doesn't do there part, it drags the whole team down. i'm not blaming everything on bargs, but i'm pointing out that his the ROOT of the problem. when he's on the floor, it causes a chain effect
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:19 PM   #132 (permalink)
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1) yes it could, thats why u used the plus/minus stat as reference and from watching the game you know really who's at fault.

2) i don't understand, why is this so hard to understand? yes they played during Bargs -18. so they all got -18. then Bargs sat the rest of the game leaving him with -18. and the 2 johnsons played the rest of the game and finished with relatively the same +/-. so if u take away the 1st 8 minutes (that Bargs played), it was a close game

3) its a team sport, so if ONE person doesn't do there part, it drags the whole team down. i'm not blaming everything on bargs, but i'm pointing out that his the ROOT of the problem. when he's on the floor, it causes a chain effect
lol okay #2 we clearly have different perspectives regarding that, there's no point arguing it any further without repeating ourselves.

and ya Bargs defense is shit, but i still don't buy that Bargs is the root of the problem for our losses. I think lack of team talent, team depth, and overall defense are more to blame (bargs inclused). no offense to james johnson, i like the guy, but a team with any sort of talent or depth would not be starting him, and Bargs has to play alongside these guys. since barg CLEARLY isnt a go to guy and we expect that of him, his level of play will lower to the level of his teammates, especially on defense. and if u say Bargs DOESN'T have more talent than any of OUR starters, then it shows pure hatred.

also to say Bargs bad defense has a chain effect, when the whole team plays bad defense is just unfair. its hard for one guy to cause a chain effect when you have almost a whole roster of guys who cant play defense. i dont see you complaining when caldy and derozan let their man fly by with ease, or when chucky weems takes u ill advised shots, or when amir fouls every two seconds because he cant contain his man effectively. i could argue by Calderon letting his man fly by him, it forces the rest of the team to play help d and leave guys wide open. so couldnt u argue caldy's d is a chain effect? nope instead u focus on Bargs because you hate his defense.

yes Bargs fucks up, but cmon, clearly have a one track mind regarding bargs. i know u dont mean it, but u come across as a guy that when the team plays bad its all Bargs fault, but when they play good, its never b/c of bargs. it wouldnt matter what occurs on the floor. Bargs HAS been a part of impressive upset victories, and the team has won 2 games without him, but you haters always bring up the dallas game or magic game as examples of not needed him. but wont mention shitty one sided losses without him, or when he plays good. selective criticism.

I honestly think if u put Bargs on a talented team, he will shine. thats what many solid role players do. i think people refuse to accept barg as the offensive role player he is and view him as that #1 pick who expects him to be like dirk. he didnt live up to it, but he wasnt a full bust by any means. i mean top 20 in scoring? you ppl act as if hes a third stringer with all the hate..

i dont care about +/-, his effectiveness, or even the amount of shots he takes, not every player has the ability to average 22 points a game....and ppl on here treat him like hes an ajinca.

im not defending Bargs defense, but half of the justifications behind rf members criticisms come across just bias...
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:30 PM   #133 (permalink)
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i'm not even talking about win/losses,
when Bargs isn't on the floor, this team competes.
i have no problems with losses where we stay competitive cuz our guys are young or just simply aren't that good
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:50 PM   #134 (permalink)
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it all evens out imo...i find the team sometimes competes and sometimes doesnt with Bargs on the floor if u look at all the games throughout the season.....same goes when he is off the floor...thats my observation anyway. all depends on the night.
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