Holy McKenzie: I enjoy watching this team play w/o Bargnani - Page 5
Old 04-04-2011, 01:47 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Our go to guy should not be a center or not be Bargs?

You would like a centre that plays defence, rebounds, gets to the line and shoot 44%? Hell me too, but we better have someone who can fill it up then, and as of yet, we don't.
If you're gonna revolve your offence through your centre then you better have a centre that has a post game and that can command at least a double team. I know the examples I'm about to list aren't realistic but when you see teams like LA (Gasol), Orlando and even Boston you see teams that work essentially inside out.

Beyond, really, Ed Davis, who camps out in the post, this team is very perimeter oriented on offense from its bigs. Amir and Bargnani your best bigs on this team really operate elsewhere on the court. It's alot harder to run your offence and defence because of this fact.

Also, I'm not entirely sure about this, we need someone who can fill it up point. One thing I've learned, is everyone in this league can score if they're asked to. Scoring should never be the main priority. Hell, I don't care if we win 1-0. At the end of the day your centre should be a guy who rebounds, can box people out, have a defensive presence and help get you EASY points (put backs, dunks, lay ups, offensive rebounds etc.) Bargnani doesn't really do that. He's a SF ideally, but not quick enough to guard SF's.

In this case, it'd be addition by subtraction. If you can add a guy with a High IQ, solid offensive and defensive game, regardless of position, I think you make that move easily and see an almost immediate return.
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:49 PM   #82 (permalink)
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No beefs Benzo. You D man.

I don't know about his contract. I am more cautious on his influence on the young team. Someone getting the majority of the shots, and have no accountability on defense. To change the defensive atmosphere on this team, you get rid of its team leader.
Can't argue with that
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:52 PM   #83 (permalink)
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If you're gonna revolve your offence through your centre then you better have a centre that has a post game and that can command at least a double team. I know the examples I'm about to list aren't realistic but when you see teams like LA (Gasol), Orlando and even Boston you see teams that work essentially inside out.

Beyond, really, Ed Davis, who camps out in the post, this team is very perimeter oriented on offense from its bigs. Amir and Bargnani your best bigs on this team really operate elsewhere on the court. It's alot harder to run your offence and defence because of this fact.

Also, I'm not entirely sure about this, we need someone who can fill it up point. One thing I've learned, is everyone in this league can score if they're asked to. Scoring should never be the main priority. Hell, I don't care if we win 1-0. At the end of the day your centre should be a guy who rebounds, can box people out, have a defensive presence and help get you EASY points (put backs, dunks, lay ups, offensive rebounds etc.) Bargnani doesn't really do that. He's a SF ideally, but not quick enough to guard SF's.

In this case, it'd be addition by subtraction. If you can add a guy with a High IQ, solid offensive and defensive game, regardless of position, I think you make that move easily and see an almost immediate return.
Right, I am not going to argue that. That is more basketball philosophy rather than "is Bargs a scrub" though.

I would still like to see him for a string of games at PF.

C-Davis
PF-Bargs
SF-Johnson
SG-Derozan
PG-Bayliss

Lets give that 5 some burn at the end of year,
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Old 04-04-2011, 02:19 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Right, I am not going to argue that. That is more basketball philosophy rather than "is Bargs a scrub" though.

I would still like to see him for a string of games at PF.

C-Davis
PF-Bargs
SF-Johnson
SG-Derozan
PG-Bayliss

Lets give that 5 some burn at the end of year,
But you're still playing 1 on 2 in the front court really.

That's why Bargnani is a conundrum to me. Do I think he's talented? Yep. Do I think he's easy to put into an offense and use him? Ummm, well, I'm not too sure. Ideally, the guy is a sixth man, instant offense type. Don't worry about D or rebounds or anything. Just play O. Kid of like Barbosa. Nice guy, but don't want him starting or playing really, really key minutes for me.

Plus, you're playing an undersized Davis at the 5 and he's just not strong enough.
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Old 04-04-2011, 03:38 PM   #85 (permalink)
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its addition by subtraction....just look at denver after the melo trade.
i seriously think we would be a better team without bargnani
emphasis on TEAM
We wood if we got somethin out of bargnani. Mabye a center who can play good defense and limited offence would be nice, cuz we woudllnt have to turn to him so much on the offense. Denver got better by gettin rid of that ball hog Carmelo and addin players who could score on offence yet make touches to their team mates. They dont take too many shots , yet when they do they make most of them. Their efficieny went up high , and so did their defence. the thread title kinda makes it seem , like hes sayin that he enjoys when Bargnani doesnt play but still on the raptors?
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Old 04-04-2011, 05:03 PM   #86 (permalink)
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There's just no way I want to see Davis playing Center. That takes a strength and turns it into another weakness. Not for every possession, but in the long run. I did see Davis taking the heavy load of guarding Bogut in the post. He didn't allow Bogut to get great position and was fighting him for every inch, and Bogut ended up making a pass to Andrea's man under the basket while Andrea was standing and watching. I just have no patience for that anymore. And that is why games are entirely more fun to watch without the guy in the lineup, for myself.
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:10 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Bargnani is a match up problem for a lot of other teams. Its why he's useful. There's no doubt that he's an exceptionally talented player.

However, because he's got a glaring weakness, the situation is reversed at times and the player he's guarding can take advantage of his D.

A player like that should come off the bench. Until he can play consistent D he's better utilized as a situational player.

Still, I wouldn't like to see him go, because there are definitely times when he can torch the other team and win a game for us.
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:15 PM   #88 (permalink)
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I agree eggs. The question is whether he can accept that kind of role. I could live with him having a go at it if he could. He should be given minutes as long as he proves to be effective, which means that he can miss shots and keep playing as long as he isn't just a spectator when it comes to everything else.
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:54 PM   #89 (permalink)
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I agree eggs. The question is whether he can accept that kind of role. I could live with him having a go at it if he could. He should be given minutes as long as he proves to be effective, which means that he can miss shots and keep playing as long as he isn't just a spectator when it comes to everything else.
What part of the heart he has shown so far would suggest that he would put up a fight to being 6th man?
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:22 PM   #90 (permalink)
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shouldn't u be on the heat forum cheering for bosh?...and honestly all of u make the same arguments about Bargs over and over and over...somebody make a fuckin Bargnani hate thread already if there isnt one already, and just keep all the posts in there...
Awww.... that hurts my feelings!
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:37 PM   #91 (permalink)
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What part of the heart he has shown so far would suggest that he would put up a fight to being 6th man?
I was more concerned with regressing. He likes minutes, and hasn't shown much of a desire to be held fully accountable. If there was some fight put up that could only be a bonus. That would be tremendous.

And Toraps - get back into your Bargnani Hate thread! - who let you out?
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:56 PM   #92 (permalink)
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I don't disagree with that entirely. But Bargnani as the guy that leads the offense, needs to make that offense more effective for other guys as well. I've seen that happen with other guys that do a little more than try to make their mark, and I would hazard to guess that they find less of a need to make their mark when Bargnani does not play. Bargnani struggles to keep things rolling for himself, let alone anyone else.

Davis, Johnson, Johnson, quite often DeRozan and sometimes Bayless, take very good shots and also look to create for others.
isnt that calderons job?
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:59 PM   #93 (permalink)
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There's just no way I want to see Davis playing Center. That takes a strength and turns it into another weakness. Not for every possession, but in the long run. I did see Davis taking the heavy load of guarding Bogut in the post. He didn't allow Bogut to get great position and was fighting him for every inch, and Bogut ended up making a pass to Andrea's man under the basket while Andrea was standing and watching. I just have no patience for that anymore. And that is why games are entirely more fun to watch without the guy in the lineup, for myself.
I noticed that too. You have two 6'9 guys (Amir, Ed Davis) battling centers like Bogut, Lopez, Dwight Howard who are outweighed by 40 to 50 pounds, only because your 7 foot center who weighs 250 lbs can't guard his position.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:04 PM   #94 (permalink)
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isnt that calderons job?
so you're saying that as long as Andrea takes shots he's done his job? Or are you saying Jose is supposed to be Nash or Paul?

Can you imagine what the most successful franchise of the last 15 years would have achieved had Duncan and Ginobili put it all on Tony Parker to make the offense work as a whole?
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:05 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Awww.... that hurts my feelings!
awww so sorry, i never want to hurt you like that ever again
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:06 PM   #96 (permalink)
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I noticed that too. You have two 6'9 guys (Amir, Ed Davis) battling centers like Bogut, Lopez, Dwight Howard who are outweighed by 40 to 50 pounds, only because your 7 foot center who weighs 250 lbs can't guard his position.
He was actually guarding the position everyone wants him to be guarding in those situations (PF) - and the real problem is that he doesn't defend his position properly in those cases. Let alone provide any kind of help.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:14 PM   #97 (permalink)
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I was more concerned with regressing. He likes minutes, and hasn't shown much of a desire to be held fully accountable. If there was some fight put up that could only be a bonus. That would be tremendous.

And Toraps - get back into your Bargnani Hate thread! - who let you out?
I don't know about that because I have been wondering for a while about whether his conditioning is suited to heavy minutes. I wish I had a way of breaking down the stats, but I am willing to bet that stats generally drop both in the 2nd half of games vs the first half and also in the 2nd of back-to back games.

I don't know if he likes minutes but he does like scoring....against anyone. If he knows to expect 28 to 30 minutes that are not going to include the first 6 or 7 minutes of each half, he can come in with someone like Reggie and tear it up out there. He might even be able to pad his rebounding stats against some lesser talents.

That way that pack of vicious hounds I have seen the last 2 games can set the tone. If he can't buy in, accountability will be in not starting, but he would still be able to help the team. And everyone knows when they need to spread the floor for a last minute shot, he will be in there.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:22 PM   #98 (permalink)
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I don't know about that because I have been wondering for a while about whether his conditioning is suited to heavy minutes. I wish I had a way of breaking down the stats, but I am willing to bet that stats generally drop both in the 2nd half of games vs the first half and also in the 2nd of back-to back games.

I don't know if he likes minutes but he does like scoring....against anyone. If he knows to expect 28 to 30 minutes that are not going to include the first 6 or 7 minutes of each half, he can come in with someone like Reggie and tear it up out there. He might even be able to pad his rebounding stats against some lesser talents.

That way that pack of vicious hounds I have seen the last 2 games can set the tone. If he can't buy in, accountability will be in not starting, but he would still be able to help the team. And everyone knows when they need to spread the floor for a last minute shot, he will be in there.
sixth man would be great for bargs. 20-25 mins a game, give it all he's got when he's on. however, i do NOT want to pay 10 mil a year to a sixth man.. at least not until we have our starters positions filled and signed in the long run..
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:36 PM   #99 (permalink)
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You need energy off the bench. + shooters need minutes to get into their rhythms. That's why Belinelli is more effective at NOLA. To tell you the truth, everyone has been lying to themselves and Bargnani, starting with the draft.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:45 PM   #100 (permalink)
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sixth man would be great for bargs. 20-25 mins a game, give it all he's got when he's on. however, i do NOT want to pay 10 mil a year to a sixth man.. at least not until we have our starters positions filled and signed in the long run..
Too late, which is one reason not to go as low as 20 min. And really, there is only 1 bad contract left on this team and it's Jose's.

There are 2 reasons not to start him.

1) How do you tell anyone else on the team to be accountable and to make sure to do certain things if you are going to be able to play and not include him?

2) They are playing a different game while he is not there. It is not stagnant at all. If they can hang in like they did this last couple of games, as a 6th man, he might be able to help cause a little surge for a lead before he comes back out.
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