Guess who's paying for the AS game? - Page 3
Old 10-04-2013, 07:12 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I don't get what difference does it make if MLSE is rich or poor, this has nothing to do with that. The goverment (city, province or federal - whatever) should make the decision not based on who else benefits, rather on whether it makes economic sense or not.

And I'm sure the 100M is an optimistic figure, it would be naive to expect otherwise. The forecast was almost certainly a range and it's almost guaranteed MLSE took the high end of the range, probably rounded it up as well. Still, whether its 50M, 70M or 100M, you can't seriously question that fact that this event will bring major dollars and a large crowd in TO?

Between all the players, their families, the entire NBA upper crust, from GMs to the league's head office, all the media, celebrities, star gazers and outside fans, I wouldn't be surprised to see 20k+ people coming to Toronto at a time when nobody really wants to come here (to in february is not the most attractive destination). And like I said, some of these people may even return one day if they like it here.

What these people will do is buy hotel tickets, restaurant meals, gifts, visit some of the local attractions, use cabs, drink in bars, give tips and yes, go to strip clubs maybe. There will be a lot of businesses and individuals who will directly benefit and the government will rake in a nice windfall in extra taxes.
I guess you didn't read the material that stated there is a consensus among economists that sports subsidies have a negligible benefit, including for major events.

And again, and I can't understand why this is overlooked here so much - the grant was not required to get any benefit that does occur. Why suggest that the return required some 500k "investment"?
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Old 10-04-2013, 07:24 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
I don't get what difference does it make if MLSE is rich or poor, this has nothing to do with that. The goverment (city, province or federal - whatever) should make the decision not based on who else benefits, rather on whether it makes economic sense or not.

And I'm sure the 100M is an optimistic figure, it would be naive to expect otherwise. The forecast was almost certainly a range and it's almost guaranteed MLSE took the high end of the range, probably rounded it up as well. Still, whether its 50M, 70M or 100M, you can't seriously question that fact that this event will bring major dollars and a large crowd in TO?

Between all the players, their families, the entire NBA upper crust, from GMs to the league's head office, all the media, celebrities, star gazers and outside fans, I wouldn't be surprised to see 20k+ people coming to Toronto at a time when nobody really wants to come here (to in february is not the most attractive destination). And like I said, some of these people may even return one day if they like it here.

What these people will do is buy hotel tickets, restaurant meals, gifts, visit some of the local attractions, use cabs, drink in bars, give tips and yes, go to strip clubs maybe. There will be a lot of businesses and individuals who will directly benefit and the government will rake in a nice windfall in extra taxes
.
This, also extra jobs will be created even if it's temporary.
As i said before benefits will be direct and indirect, Ex: cab drivers will make $ (direct) and than they will spend it here: local businesses, rent, attractions etc (indirect). So that money will be captured in our economy.
Leak from USA (or other countries) economies straight in to ours. Also very good point about tourist liking Toronto and coming back again, that will be beneficial in the future
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:14 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Some more interesting reading. Bad numbers tend to lead to bigger and worse numbers and so on and so on. It's called bullshit.

NBA All-Star game falls far short of forecast | wfaa.com Dallas - Fort Worth

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It's a big game that means big bucks. At least that's the equation big league sports promote when their all-star games come to town.
But now the numbers are in for February's NBA All-Star Game at Cowboys Stadium in Arlington, and they say the big buck predictions were a foul.
The NBA's economic consultant said fans would spend $152 million. That's what the state comptroller's office signed off on.
But now, more tax receipts for the NBA game have been totaled, indicating the predicted economic impact was hugely inflated.
That raises new questions about the consultant who produced the study — the same man who says next year's Super Bowl at Cowboys Stadium will deliver a $600 million boost to the region.
Michael Casinelli of San Diego owns Marketing Information Masters. He was paid by the All-Star North Texas Basketball Local Organizing Committee to prepare an economic impact study for the NBA event.
To see who wins, you check the score.
Based on the economic score, the dollars spent, let's look at the economic impact of this year's NBA All-Star Game:
It's not $152 million as predicted.
Tax receipts from the State of Texas show the game brought in zero.
The numbers are reflected in tax receipts from five North Texas cities which were predicted to post large hotel, restaurant and alcohol revenue increases as a result of the game.
But instead of that boost, year-to-year revenue comparisons with 2009 — during the depth of the economic downturn — show only small increases or decreases during February, the month of the game. The All-Star contest was early in the month, allowing businesses ample time to report their revenues.
Dallas had been predicted to reap the biggest bonus from the game. Marketing Information Masters forecast that fans would spend $22 million on hotels in Dallas for the February game. But state tax receipts show hotel revenue for Dallas was actually down $800,000 from the year before — when the economy was worse.
The consultant said fans would spend $20 million on alcohol in Dallas alone. But tax receipts show people spent $1.2 million less for the whole month than they did a year earlier, when there was no All-Star game in the area.
Marketing Information Masters said visitors would spend money before the game on NBA-sponsored events whose revenues do not stay in North Texas.
The study also said fans would spend $20,571,952 on unidentified "entertainment" in Dallas, Arlington, Fort Worth, Irving and Grapevine. Since this "entertainment" spending is not identified, it is impossible to track whether it occurred.
Nearly as difficult to track are restaurant expenditures, because restaurant sales tax is not separated from other sales tax by the state. Marketing Information Masters also said NBA fans would spend millions at game-related events like the NBA Jam Session.
SMU economist Mike Davis is one of several experts nationwide who are skeptical of the impact projections attributed to big sporting events.
"The methodology behind many of these studies, it's kind of a black box," Davis said. "They do a survey or they find some numbers somewhere. They throw it into a model that maybe hasn't been designed for the thing they're looking at. And they get this huge economic impact."
Marketing Information Masters' Casinelli declined to be interviewed by News 8 on how he developed his numbers. But Casinelli also prepared an economic study for the 2006 NBA All-Star Game in Houston, which sheds some light on his methodology.
News 8 obtained the study under the Texas Public Information Act. It predicted a $49 million boost to the Houston economy from that game.
The report said the number came from "the NBA's and host committee's hospitality budgets" and various "surveys of other visiting sports fans in other cities."
The report also cites a "literature search on the Internet" as a secondary source, using numbers — presumably from news stories — about earlier All-Star games in Washington, Philadelphia and Atlanta.
But news stories frequently quote economic impact estimates from the consultants themselves.
Why would a game in North Texas generate three times as much income — $152 million — as the one in Houston?
"It's kind of a mystery to me; These numbers are so hard to pin down," Davis said. "I don't want to say that he's just making them up, because I don't know."
But now there are more questions about the way sports economic impact studies are done — and the consultants who do them.
Davis is one of several experts nationwide who are skeptical of the impact projections from sporting events. "The methodology behind many of these studies is kind of a black box," he says. "they do a survey or they find some numbers somewhere.The throw it into a model that hasn't been desinged for the thing they're looking at, and they get this huge economic impact."
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:46 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Yep - you asked for it and you got it - more study material

Bowling for dollars: Super Bowl impact questioned | wfaa.com Dallas - Fort Worth

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A consultant hired by the North Texas Super Bowl XLV Host Committee says hundreds of thousands of fans — equaling the population of Fort Worth and Frisco combined — will descend on North Texas for the NFL championship game at Cowboys Stadium next February.
"The state has validated the economic projection that this game will generate $611 million of economic impact over North Texas," said Bill Lively, Host Committee president.
The state said it never looked at the $611 million figure. But Phillip Porter, an economist who has studied Super Bowls for the last 30 years, is skeptical of the numbers generated by consultants.
"Any fool can pick up a computer and put those numbers in and get numbers out the other side," he said. "And that's what you're seeing in those reports: A fool."
The Super Bowl XLV study was produced by Marketing Information Masters, which says its address is a suite in La Mesa, California. The address turns out to be a post office box.
Company founder Michael Casinelli is as elusive as his business location. He declined to be interviewed on television and canceled an interview on the phone.
Among other things, he told us he didn't want his competitors to know how he came up with his projections.
Casinelli seems to have found a formula for producing reports that are accepted in Texas.
He was hired to produce an impact study for Super Bowl XXXVIII in Houston. He said the 2004 contest would generate $330 million.
That projection was never measured after the fact.
Casinelli also wrote an economic impact statement for February's NBA All-Star game at Cowboys Stadium in Arlington. He said that event would generate $152 million.
The two Casinelli studies obtained by News 8 do not measure what people really spend at events; nor do they use historical data.
Instead, they make assumptions about spending.
They also do not measure the costs of an event, only its positive impact.
Economist Porter says there's a reason for that. "If they were simply to look at what people did spend, look at the data: They wouldn't find any economic return."
News 8 compared what fans actually spent on the NBA All-Star game in Arlington with what Casinelli projected they would spend, based on available tax receipts. When we told him we wanted to review tax receipts with him, he grew chilly to the idea of an interview.
His overestimates were substantial.
He said NBA All-Star fans would spend more than $13 million on rental cars in North Texas over the five days of the event. Dallas Fort-Worth International Airport rents by far the most autos in North Texas. Airport figures show just $17 million in rentals for the entire month of February.
Alcohol is a huge tax generator for sporting events. At next year's Arlington Super Bowl, Casinelli estimates $83 million will be spent on alcohol, about $116 per capita.
For February's NBA All-Star Game he predicted Dallas alone would net $1.9 million in alcohol taxes. Tax receipts, however, indicate Dallas collected $1.9 million for the whole month.
In hotel taxes, Casinelli said Dallas would reap $1.1 million for the five days of the event. Hotel taxes for the entire 28 days of February were just $2.7 million.
Casinelli is not an economist. He says he used to work with an economist, learned a lot from him, and he said economists don't have much "real world experience."
Bill Lively of the Super Bowl Host Committee said he knows Casinelli is not an economist.
Porter, who teaches at the University of South Florida, is an economist. He has studied the real impact of five Super Bowls in Florida by examining tax data from the counties where they are played.
"We know how much is sold in every community in a month," he said. "We can look and see what were sales this February versus last February, what were sales this February versus next February."
When he does that, he finds a big discrepancy between Casinelli's projections and reality.
"Even the best of them [Super Bowls] come out at $30 to $40 million... not $600 million," Porter said. "And the worst of them come out at minus $100 million, minus $200 million. So the overall impact is negative."
The new stadium in Arlington holds 93,000 fans. Casinelli estimates that 731,000 people will come to North Texas just to be near the action.
His report states that one out of every 14 households in the four counties that comprise North Texas will have three house guests for three days. This assumption is based on a phone survey in an unnamed city on an undisclosed date.
Those visitors will attend NFL-sponsored events and buy NFL clothing, no doubt. Porter says, however, that most of that money leaves the community.
"Even the strippers in the strip clubs come for out of the community during Super Bowl weekend to work," he said.
The state is tasked to check consultants' work before allocating seed money. The comptroller's office, which vets the studies, says it depends on the Host Committee to fact-check.
"We used the information provided by the Host Committee, as well as information that's available on other Super Bowls," said Robert Wood of the comptroller's office.
When asked where that "other information" came from, Wood cited newspaper articles.
For its part, the Host Committee says it looks to the state set the rules. "We also believed all along the state would tell us if the study had merit or not," Lively said. "Ultimately, it's their decision, not ours."
Porter says two kinds of people believe projections based on assumptions rather than data. "Those who have economic gain; that might include politicians, but it certainly includes NFL owners who sponsor these studies. Or people who are naive at best and fools at worst."
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Old 10-05-2013, 01:01 AM   #45 (permalink)
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The government isn't getting any return. Zilch. Zippo. It is not an investment. It is a handout to dudes that do not need anything close to a handout, but will apparently be happy to take it. Unless you're saying the All-Star game would not happen without the province contributing. Oddly, they made no announcement, so that wouldn't seem to be the case, and thinking it through, it seems a little silly to think that would be the case.
I doubt MLSE will make their investment back on the All Star extravaganza. Do you realize the upgrades to the ACC they will have to invest in? Unless MLSE owns all the taxi cabs, restaurants, and hotels in Toronto... Than I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Let's say Toronto was able to create 150 million in visitor spending... You should be able to do the math and calculate the sales tax on that pretty easily. Yes, it's a small investment by the government upfront for the larger payoff. Not to mention the publicity the city/province gets to a bunch of people who disposable income.
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Old 10-05-2013, 07:09 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I doubt MLSE will make their investment back on the All Star extravaganza. Do you realize the upgrades to the ACC they will have to invest in? Unless MLSE owns all the taxi cabs, restaurants, and hotels in Toronto... Than I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Let's say Toronto was able to create 150 million in visitor spending... You should be able to do the math and calculate the sales tax on that pretty easily. Yes, it's a small investment by the government upfront for the larger payoff. Not to mention the publicity the city/province gets to a bunch of people who disposable income.
Do the reading. There will be no 150 million. There will be no big payoff.

And oh gee, the monopolies that own the ACC will need to make upgrades that will increase it's value. If that's the case then they have my pity and I can surely see why the Liberals were compelled to make the offer for humanitarian reasons alone.
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Old 10-05-2013, 09:04 AM   #47 (permalink)
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2012 NBA All-Star Weekend Economic Impact More Than $95 Million | THE OFFICIAL SITE OF THE ORLANDO MAGIC

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Recent NBA all-star weekends in Phoenix, Orlando and Houston pumped up to $100 million into local economies and attracted as many as 50,000 visitors, with the NBA reserving more than 5,000 hotel rooms.

The need for a U.S. citizens to produce a passport at border crossings may decrease the number of fans who come to Toronto.

A study commissioned by the Orlando Magic found that the 2012 all-star event generated about $95 million in economic impact, including $56 million in direct spending and $40 million in indirect spending.
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/25...-all-star-game
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Old 10-05-2013, 10:36 AM   #48 (permalink)
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A study commissioned by LX found that he was fucking awesome.
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Old 10-05-2013, 10:53 AM   #49 (permalink)
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There are tons of random articles that could prove any point. In that Dallas example they are talking about direct impact and it's still very flawed. If you are actually trying to prove that allstar weekend will not bring money i think you are out of your mind

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Old 10-05-2013, 11:05 AM   #50 (permalink)
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There are tons of random articles that could prove any point. In that Dallas example they are talking about direct impact and it's still very flawed. If you are actually trying to prove that allstar game will not bring money i think you are out of your mind
There are certainly a ton of bad numbers out there, and a consensus among economists about that. I cited scholarly articles as well as investigative reports. The gist across them all is not so much that there is absolutely no benefit, but rather that benefits are grossly inflated. Restaurants do not add extra tables to take in extra diners. Those attending from the region might spend on the AS weekend! but that money takes away from money they would spend on other local forms of entertainment. Other locals will be pushed away from their usual economic activity in order to avoid the crowds. And of course there will be a good number of expenses that tend to not get added into the mix. The net result is usually negligible. The psychic effect is often undeniably positive, and there are some small indirect benefits to the city getting positive exposure.

As for your comment about the internet, you make my point for me. That is the type of source material that has been used to make projections. Next year the team awarded the '17 AS game will cite figures in our newspapers, and likely up the numbers yet a bit more, so that you get Houston saying it's a 3 million dollar benefit 25 years ago, and the number continually being inflated from there.

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Old 10-05-2013, 11:11 AM   #51 (permalink)
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There are certainly a ton of bad numbers out there, and a consensus among economists about that. I cited scholarly articles as well as investigative reports. The gist across them all is not so much that there is absolutely no benefit, but rather that benefits are grossly inflated. Restaurants do not add extra tables to take in extra diners. Those attending from the region might spend on the AS weekend! but that money takes away from money they would spend on other local forms of entertainment. Other locals will be pushed away from their usual economic activity in order to avoid the crowds. And of course there will be a good number of expenses that tend to not get added into the mix. The net result is usually negligible. The psychic effect is often undeniably positive, and there are some small indirect benefits to the city getting positive exposure.
But locals spending less on that weekend (assuming it's true) doesn't take away from the economy. My point is that the allstar weekend will bring injection of foreign dollars to Canada.
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Old 10-05-2013, 11:35 AM   #52 (permalink)
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But locals spending less on that weekend (assuming it's true) doesn't take away from the economy. My point is that the allstar weekend will bring injection of foreign dollars to Canada.
Yes. But how much, and to what effect? And what is the overall net benefit? The multipliers have been horribly exaggerated.

There have been cities hosting the Super Bowl that have come out losing a ton of money in terms of a net effect. Read the studies. The AS event is cool to have. There will be some overall benefit I would guess. But not to the point where it should be subsidized, particularly since it does not require those subsidies in order to take place.
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Old 10-05-2013, 01:09 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Yes. But how much, and to what effect? And what is the overall net benefit? The multipliers have been horribly exaggerated.

There have been cities hosting the Super Bowl that have come out losing a ton of money in terms of a net effect. Read the studies. The AS event is cool to have. There will be some overall benefit I would guess. But not to the point where it should be subsidized, particularly since it does not require those subsidies in order to take place.

I'm trying to separate your real issue from all the over the top emotion. You've got a Rob Ford/John Candy thing going on here.

Is it that you don't like MLSE? Rogers and Bell ownership? Tim Lieweke's ability get government support? The all star game? Toronto hosting the event? The liberal party? Basketball?

The fact is the Liberal party spend money to stimulate the economy. If not into the All Star game than another tourist pavilion in St. Jacobs. Get involved in your local political endeavours if you are heavily convicted. Otherwise you appear to be a grumpy old man sitting in front of his 486 rambling in need of human contact.

If you chose to ignore the thought process that visitors spend money in the city then fine... They will all sleep in a van down by the river. How can you ignore extra ticket sales revenue? The sales tax on that alone in its most basic form more than covers the 500k you are so worked up about.

Yes, Rogers or bell over charge you for your cell service. Does that mean you would rather not have them succeed in basketball in the Toronto market? Dumb. Fix what needs to be fixed and celebrate what should be celebrated.
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Old 10-05-2013, 02:35 PM   #54 (permalink)
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I'm trying to separate your real issue from all the over the top emotion. You've got a Rob Ford/John Candy thing going on here.

Is it that you don't like MLSE? Rogers and Bell ownership? Tim Lieweke's ability get government support? The all star game? Toronto hosting the event? The liberal party? Basketball?

The fact is the Liberal party spend money to stimulate the economy. If not into the All Star game than another tourist pavilion in St. Jacobs. Get involved in your local political endeavours if you are heavily convicted. Otherwise you appear to be a grumpy old man sitting in front of his 486 rambling in need of human contact.

If you chose to ignore the thought process that visitors spend money in the city then fine... They will all sleep in a van down by the river. How can you ignore extra ticket sales revenue? The sales tax on that alone in its most basic form more than covers the 500k you are so worked up about.

Yes, Rogers or bell over charge you for your cell service. Does that mean you would rather not have them succeed in basketball in the Toronto market? Dumb. Fix what needs to be fixed and celebrate what should be celebrated.
Sorry. I'm sure you're a cool person, but that was one of the most idiotic things I've ever read on this board. LX is pointing to the profit margins of some very big and powerful corporations who routinely INSIST that their business and the way they conduct it is for the public good. They gouge customers for shitty service (take a look at where we rank globally for wireless services and dollar for dollar value) and rely upon CRTC subsidies coming from the public to support their infrastructure. Oh, and on top of gouging the Canadian public for wireless service, they're also suing the Government (ie Us!!!!) for attempting to open up the market to bring Canada's wireless market more in line with the rest of the world.

Why all of this as an example? Because as so many of you seem to be ignoring, this cash payment was made secretly. I sat and watched the entire two-hour coverage of the All-Star game announcement and not once did MPP Michael Chen mention this "support." This isn't about the numbers in my mind, but the actual ideological underpinnings of this. Which is reflective of how elected officials tend to think about the public purse. Ask yourself, why is it okay for the public to invest in what the data says is a dubious investment at best, as a gesture of "good will" while MLSE shrugs this away? if they want the all-star game so badly then they should pay for it, in its entirety and be thankful for the infrastructure (including the ACC) provided to them by the taxpayers of Ontario.
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Old 10-05-2013, 03:19 PM   #55 (permalink)
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So in fact it is about being butt hurt over cell service costs and hating the liberal government for assistance. Lieweke made a call and the Liberals bought. How exactly is this Bell's fault? I urge you to separate the anger into it's proper issues.

1.Liberal spending practices
2. Cost of services (rogers and Bell)

Do you have any concerns that can not be put into these two categories?


I'd hate to read this forum the day you guys discover significant issues like the 407 fiasco.
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Old 10-05-2013, 03:41 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I don't have a cell phone. Never have. My concern is with bullshit and those that want to tell me it smells nice, to the extent that they'll toss around some personal slights in the process of defending what is obviously indefensible. Holy shit I must really hate basketball eh? If you have a point that doesn't involve

1. Being condescending, or
2. Being incredibly condescending

then I'm not seeing it. I've tried to make my points as clear as possible. You can object all you like in the face of all the literature I have provided, but please refrain from misrepresenting my arguments or questioning my motives and personal character.

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Old 10-05-2013, 04:25 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I did not intend to question your character with any statement. If it appears that way then I am sorry. I however strongly disagree MLSE somehow strong armed the government to fund this venture. What proof do you have of this or how does it even make sense?

My deal is I would never get upset with a government for supporting a passion. How often has the government financial stimulated basketball in Toronto/ontario/canada? Why fight it? The money is going to spent somewhere. 500k for something this big is trivial.
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Old 10-05-2013, 04:32 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Yes. But how much, and to what effect? And what is the overall net benefit? The multipliers have been horribly exaggerated.

There have been cities hosting the Super Bowl that have come out losing a ton of money in terms of a net effect. Read the studies. The AS event is cool to have. There will be some overall benefit I would guess. But not to the point where it should be subsidized, particularly since it does not require those subsidies in order to take place.
I don't know, I don't think anyone does, but i think it is safe to assume it will be more than 500k. And I completely agree that MLSE does not need that money, but as I said before lets wait and see how are they going to use it.
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Old 10-05-2013, 05:49 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I'm sure it will be more than 500k. This is what I just don't get - the 500k did not need to be forked over to a bunch of monopolies that can pretty much print their own money. Wouldn't getting whatever tax receipts and overall benefits be better than getting the same after tossing away a bunch of money? Is this government support or just a tidy little payout to a party supporter? Wouldn't government support be something they would trumpet rather than try to keep hush hush?
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Old 10-05-2013, 09:01 PM   #60 (permalink)
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The ontario government did have representation at the presser. I didn't think he was there for his public speaking skills or comedic value.

By getting the government financially involved means they have input in how they want Ontario to be branded...

I see it differently than you. I don't think MLSE is getting a check or cash for a job well done. Ontario has a role to play in this and has budgeted 500k to fulfill what they must do.
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