Grantland: The Raptors make over - Page 5
Old 01-02-2014, 02:27 PM   #81 (permalink)
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while I obviously agree with most of your points, I'm not sure you're suggesting how to accomplish this? I don't doubt for a second that masai wants to tank and they're not stupid, they know their best chance to get a star is through the draft. But we are in a market where lots of teams are trying to sell players better than ours and can't, because few teams are buying and the ususal suspects (nyk/nets) were already milked to death by others. With the lakers apparently now in the tank crowd as well, who is really left?

The Nets, Knicks, Wizards, Cavs, Detroit and Charlotte in the east and Houston and maybe Minesotta in the west - can't think of any other team that would be looking to trade up this season. And, if you look at all these teams, only the Knicks are probably upgrading their PG position with lowry, the other ones don't need him unless we give him away for free. Same with Demar, he would't be an upgrade for any of those teams, save maybe the Knicks again.

So, unless we consider trading amir/jv/ross, it's not even a case of selling cheap, it's more of a case of nobody needing what we have period. I'm sure all these teams would be happy to trade for lowry/demar if all we ask is expiring/2nd round picks, but anything more than that and they would hang up on you.

Our only chance is the Knicks
Why would I speculate on a forum? Wouldn't want to be a pretend GM or anything. :cookie:

I think you're right in saying that there are a limited number of teams wanting to trade for Lowry to start, but a lot of teams especially contenders, would be willing to acquire him as probably the best backup PG in the league.

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Old 01-02-2014, 06:57 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Yes, I'd take them over Houston, because the talented Howard isn't inclined to play like a member of a great team, and all the coaches he's had haven't been able to get him to play that way. Howard and the Rockets can be exciting to watch, but I don't think they'll win a crown because defense is their weakness and defense wins in the playoffs. It's much harder to get team chemistry right than you think, and sloughing it off doesn't make it less relevant. You can acquire talent by draft/trade or FA, but chemistry and team play can't just be acquired.
I've recently read a chat with tom habenstroff on espn and he was making a great point about chemistry and winning (his point being that chemistry is a made up concept). When was the last time you heard someone saying, "man, this team sucks, but they have such great chemistry"?

I would be curious to see how many other fans would take phoenix over rockets if they would have chance to exchange rosters with our team ... While I agree that houston will never win a title as long as harden is their focal point, it's not that difficult to trade him for a better fit if they so choose. On the other hand, Phoenix will be lucky to make the playoff with that roster and anything more than that would be pure fantasy.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:01 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Why would I speculate on a forum? Wouldn't want to be a pretend GM or anything. :cookie:

I think you're right in saying that there are a limited number of teams wanting to trade for Lowry to start, but a lot of teams especially contenders, would be willing to acquire him as probably the best backup PG in the league.
sure, but would they be willing to trade anything of substance? Any team would love to have his expiring contract, but we're asking for a 1st round pick that is fairly likely to end up in the lottery. Basic finance would indicate that the value of a pick so far in the future is lower (you'd rather have 1st rounder now than one 5 years from now), but still. And I'm not sure masai would accept a 1st rounder projected to go 25+ this draft in exchange for lowry. He may have been willing 2 weeks ago, but he's got to be in a tough spot now.

Let's face it, breaking up the team now is nearly impossible, think about the message you'd send to the players (the ones that remain anyway)? And the public support is almost nil now, probably 1 in 5 fans still support tanking at this point, and that may be optimistic.
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Old 01-02-2014, 08:46 PM   #84 (permalink)
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I've recently read a chat with tom habenstroff on espn and he was making a great point about chemistry and winning (his point being that chemistry is a made up concept). When was the last time you heard someone saying, "man, this team sucks, but they have such great chemistry"?

I would be curious to see how many other fans would take phoenix over rockets if they would have chance to exchange rosters with our team ... While I agree that houston will never win a title as long as harden is their focal point, it's not that difficult to trade him for a better fit if they so choose. On the other hand, Phoenix will be lucky to make the playoff with that roster and anything more than that would be pure fantasy.
Houston's line-up is a Colangelo wet dream. No thanks. BTW, his name is Haberstroh.
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:05 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Let's face it, breaking up the team now is nearly impossible, think about the message you'd send to the players (the ones that remain anyway)? And the public support is almost nil now, probably 1 in 5 fans still support tanking at this point, and that may be optimistic.
Ignoring the possibility of a tank which I acknowledge have diminished, the only message Masai would be sendin to the players and fans would be that he doesn't want to keep a guy on an expiring contract who it is not worth it to re-sign
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:34 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Wait, someone would take Phoenix's CURRENT roster over Houstons? Did I read that correctly? One is built to possibly get to the Western Conference Finals this year, the other will be lucky if they make the playoffs and win a few games.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:43 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Wait, someone would take Phoenix's CURRENT roster over Houstons? Did I read that correctly? One is built to possibly get to the Western Conference Finals this year, the other will be lucky if they make the playoffs and win a few games.
Yes. I don't like Houston's roster and their style of play, even with all the "names" in their line-up, and especially in the playoffs.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:16 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Yes. I don't like Houston's roster and their style of play, even with all the "names" in their line-up, and especially in the playoffs.
And you prefer Phoenix?

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Old 01-02-2014, 11:18 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Yes. I don't like Houston's roster and their style of play, even with all the "names" in their line-up, and especially in the playoffs.
I'm with Niggles on this one. Harden is a decent player, but that's only because the refs call the game in his favor almost every night resulting in him pretty much getting 15+ free throws a game. Dwight has hardly any post game and is a cancer. Other than those players the only real talents on that team are Parsons, Beverly (should be a backup, not a starter), Asik (but he doesn't play and you can't have him and Howard on the same team) and lastly I think Donatas Motiejūnas could be a decent player, but he is never given any playing time. Other than that there roster is filled with scrubs.

At least with Phoenix you have a pretty good young core with Bledsoe, Dragic, Morris Twins, Plumlee, Goodwin and Len may be a decent player if he ever gets healthy. Frye is a decent stretch big and P.J. Tucker is a great defender and has really improved his game since coming back to the NBA. With Okafor you know your getting a big body that is a strong rebounder and will get scrap points (needs to be healthy though). So ya I would definitely pick the Suns roster over the Rockets.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:19 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Wait, someone would take Phoenix's CURRENT roster over Houstons? Did I read that correctly? One is built to possibly get to the Western Conference Finals this year, the other will be lucky if they make the playoffs and win a few games.
If Terrence Jones and Patrick Beverly are your starting PF and PG you are no way in hell getting to the Western Conference finals. Plus, they hardly have a bench.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:57 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Yes. I don't like Houston's roster and their style of play, even with all the "names" in their line-up, and especially in the playoffs.
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If Terrence Jones and Patrick Beverly are your starting PF and PG you are no way in hell getting to the Western Conference finals. Plus, they hardly have a bench.
Their top 8-9 players that they're going to use in the playoffs is very good. Parsons is one of the best 3rd options in the NBA, and their PG rotation isn't bad at all, especially when you factor in that they have played some of the best defence against opposing PGs in comparison to the rest of the NBA. Lin has become a very good defensive player this season, and Beverley was already a very good defender.

In the playoffs you win with defence, rebounding, and consistent scoring, and Houston has all of these things. Yes, they're highly inconsistent, but when you have two players who can get the other team in foul trouble, and get to the basket at consistently as Harden and Dwight do, they become a really tough match up come playoff time. Combine that with their very good 3 point shooting, and you have a dangerous team come playoff time if healthy.

If you really think Phoenix is going to win more playoff games than Houston this year, then you're completely out to lunch. If Phoenix even makes the playoffs, teams will make Bledsoe and Dragic try and beat them with their scoring, and cut off the 3 point line. They dont have the consistent offensive options that Houston has, nor Dwight anchoring their defence.

There's absolutely no way Phoenix wins more playoff games than Houston as currently constructed. Zero. None. Nada. I would absolutely sig bet either of you on that.

If you want to argue which team has a brighter future, there's obviously a good case for PHX, but it's no contest this season. The playoffs are a different beast, and Phoenix is gonna get KO'd by whoever they play, assuming they even make it.

Also, Terrence Jones has proven to be a solid starting PF for them so far. No need to knock him like he's not producing.
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:22 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Have to agree with BDL here.... people may not care for Harden or D12 personally but they're obviously top 10 or top 15 players. Add in Parsons with Lin and Jones chipping in and you have a much better chance in the playoffs than PHX does.
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:08 AM   #93 (permalink)
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year I have Jones on my fantasy team and man does he produce, he usually has more blocks and rebounds than Dwight has and he scores in double digits
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Old 01-03-2014, 03:31 AM   #94 (permalink)
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I've recently read a chat with tom habenstroff on espn and he was making a great point about chemistry and winning (his point being that chemistry is a made up concept). When was the last time you heard someone saying, "man, this team sucks, but they have such great chemistry"?

I would be curious to see how many other fans would take phoenix over rockets if they would have chance to exchange rosters with our team ... While I agree that houston will never win a title as long as harden is their focal point, it's not that difficult to trade him for a better fit if they so choose. On the other hand, Phoenix will be lucky to make the playoff with that roster and anything more than that would be pure fantasy.
I like that approach on analysing chemistry because analysts and fans often have a habbit of looking at things in reverse, effect instead of cause. BUT in this case, I don't agree!

Chemistry definitely exists. Compare 2 good teams and see if one has better chemistry. Eg, last season's knicks, good team, got a lot of wins but fell off in the playoffs. They had decent chemistry, players seemed to be supporting melo doing his thing but eventually his relentless chucking hurt the team. That was more a tactical chemistry issues than players not getting on.

Then of course you have teams like indiana who have awesome chemistry and absolutely maximise their talent level. Personality wise they were totally solid whereas the knicks were just ok, until things went wrong, and tactically they were varied with mulitple plays set for multiple players.

An even more relevant approach is to look at previously bad teams who've become good. Who should we look at here!? Maybe the toronto raptors!?

We were previously running iso after iso, ball sticking, val and amir criminally underused and although things looked ok personality wise and relationship wise, cracks started to appear (DD looking pissed.) unquestionably now tactically we are far superior and the players look far happier, gay's best friend the best proof of that.

Maybe you don't define that as chemistry or you think something else caused it? But I think that is most people's definition of chemistry.

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Old 01-03-2014, 06:48 AM   #95 (permalink)
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The question asked was:

For example, you give the example of Phoenix. They are currently ahead of teams like houston, GSW or New Orleans. If you had to choose which team to move to Toronto, would you pick them over Houston? I think most fans would choose Houston, and the reason they would do it is howard and harden.

I replied to this. I would take Phoenix, because the debate was talent vs chemistry.
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Old 01-03-2014, 08:26 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Their top 8-9 players that they're going to use in the playoffs is very good. Parsons is one of the best 3rd options in the NBA, and their PG rotation isn't bad at all, especially when you factor in that they have played some of the best defence against opposing PGs in comparison to the rest of the NBA. Lin has become a very good defensive player this season, and Beverley was already a very good defender.

In the playoffs you win with defence, rebounding, and consistent scoring, and Houston has all of these things. Yes, they're highly inconsistent, but when you have two players who can get the other team in foul trouble, and get to the basket at consistently as Harden and Dwight do, they become a really tough match up come playoff time. Combine that with their very good 3 point shooting, and you have a dangerous team come playoff time if healthy.

If you really think Phoenix is going to win more playoff games than Houston this year, then you're completely out to lunch. If Phoenix even makes the playoffs, teams will make Bledsoe and Dragic try and beat them with their scoring, and cut off the 3 point line. They dont have the consistent offensive options that Houston has, nor Dwight anchoring their defence.

There's absolutely no way Phoenix wins more playoff games than Houston as currently constructed. Zero. None. Nada. I would absolutely sig bet either of you on that.

If you want to argue which team has a brighter future, there's obviously a good case for PHX, but it's no contest this season. The playoffs are a different beast, and Phoenix is gonna get KO'd by whoever they play, assuming they even make it.

Also, Terrence Jones has proven to be a solid starting PF for them so far. No need to knock him like he's not producing.
Same as Niggles ^^^^^. I was clearly talking about this from a roster standpoint. I like the Suns roster and play more than the Rockets. I did not say anywhere in my previous post that they would get more playoff wins than Houston, so I don't know why you bring up the topic when responding to me. My argument is that the Suns have a brighter future with young players, picks, and a boat load of cash for free agency. I guarantee in about 2 yrs time Dwight will bitch and moan about how he wants a trade because he is not the "franchise player" of the team because the Rockets are clearly Harden's team. Once that happens the Rockets will once again fall back down the Western Conference ladder.

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Old 01-03-2014, 01:11 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Wait, someone would take Phoenix's CURRENT roster over Houstons? Did I read that correctly? One is built to possibly get to the Western Conference Finals this year, the other will be lucky if they make the playoffs and win a few games.
yes, but the chemistry man
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:17 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Ignoring the possibility of a tank which I acknowledge have diminished, the only message Masai would be sendin to the players and fans would be that he doesn't want to keep a guy on an expiring contract who it is not worth it to re-sign
this I disagree, I think lowry is totally worth it - at the right price.

but the thing is, unless you know that he will not resign, which is hard to make a care for, how do you face the players after you trade lowry for picks. They busted their asses and you just flip the carpet from under them ...

That's the danger in waiting, we didn't fire mitchell and then he won coy and we had to extend. For those who don't like casey, there's a very good chance the same thing will happen again. And with the team playing so well, most of the public support for tanking has evaporated.

at least I get to fucking enjoy this season, now that tanking is out the door. I know I will regret this tomorrow, but what are you going to do
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:22 PM   #99 (permalink)
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this I disagree, I think lowry is totally worth it - at the right price.
That's what I meant. He will easily get 9 mil or so for 3+ years, and I don't think its worth it to sign a top 15-20 PG for that much.
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but the thing is, unless you know that he will not resign, which is hard to make a care for, how do you face the players after you trade lowry for picks. They busted their asses and you just flip the carpet from under them ...

That's the danger in waiting, we didn't fire mitchell and then he won coy and we had to extend. For those who don't like casey, there's a very good chance the same thing will happen again. And with the team playing so well, most of the public support for tanking has evaporated.

at least I get to fucking enjoy this season, now that tanking is out the door. I know I will regret this tomorrow, but what are you going to do
Yep, I agree with this. I have been against the wait and see strategy for a while, but Masai went on with it and it's too late now to make any changes to the roster unless you want to potentially ruin the chemistry of the team and kill the success.
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