Grange: Time's about up for Martin - Page 2
Old 12-05-2007, 12:02 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I understand your point, but if you see him in Europe his growth has pretty much stagnated. He may be on the bench, but at least he's on the bench with NBA players. And if he at all wants to be a player he'll listen and watch intently to what's occurring. That's where Martin can come in. Sit beside the young kid, and talk to him about the game; teach him. Play against NBA players in practice; learn the offensive schemes and defensive schemes. And if he complains about PT then well he's not a player and doesn't give a shit about this team and only himself.

Plus, as I believe that this team will be a contender in 1-2 years time, why have a player, play a key spot for this team and have no knowledge about the intracies of the NBA game?
Well... I think we have different opinions on 3rd string pg being a key spot but okay

If we did end trading away Jose, then i'm all for bringing Ukic over. I really think you get a lot more value out of Martin as the 15th guy and dont' think if we don't resign him as a player he automatically becomes a coach... he may still want to play and move to another organization.

As for the discussion on developing on the bench. Can we say that Uros Slokar developed his game last year? (I think he's in Russia with Hoffa). Can we say Luke Jackson developed on the bench in the past year? (Where is waldo these days anyways?)

I think Martin's role has more impact to the team and our young point guards than we get to appreciate and as long as Sam doesn't give him extended minutes at any pivotal point of a game...he's not hurting us on the court.
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Old 12-05-2007, 01:08 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jose sit on the bench when we first brought him over, or did he play sparingly or anything? i cant remember. If we did bring in Ukic, he could at least spend time in practice playing against NBA caliber talent. Plus, we could then move D-Mart to the bench and have him take Ukic under his wing.

Just a thought
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Old 12-05-2007, 01:11 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jose sit on the bench when we first brought him over, or did he play sparingly or anything? i cant remember. If we did bring in Ukic, he could at least spend time in practice playing against NBA caliber talent. Plus, we could then move D-Mart to the bench and have him take Ukic under his wing.

Just a thought

Jose played 23 mins per game as a rookie... he averaged 5.5 ppg and 4.5 apg. He didnt' have a lot of confidence but he hustled his butt off. It was his experience that following summer at Fiba where they won the world championship combined with him working a lot on his shot that elevated him to the next level. In other words, he got better by playing...not sitting on the bench.

Ukic will rot on the bench here... trust me if BC saw it any different it would be different.
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Old 12-05-2007, 01:11 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jose sit on the bench when we first brought him over, or did he play sparingly or anything?
No, Jose played some decent minutes if I remember correctly. But the difference with him and Ukic is that Jose was making a name for himself overseas while Ukic seems to be a below average ball player.
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Old 12-05-2007, 01:20 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Let's add a couple more names to the list of players that have developed on the Raptors bench shall we? Jerome Moiso, Omar Cook, Andre Barret, Pape Sow, Loren Woods... all studs, all playing in the dleague, europe or parts unknown. Not saying Ukic doesn't have more talent but you need playing time in games to develop young players... not practice time and cheerleading time.
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Old 12-05-2007, 02:23 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Let's add a couple more names to the list of players that have developed on the Raptors bench shall we? Jerome Moiso, Omar Cook, Andre Barret, Pape Sow, Loren Woods... all studs, all playing in the dleague, europe or parts unknown. Not saying Ukic doesn't have more talent but you need playing time in games to develop young players... not practice time and cheerleading time.
Moiso had plenty of time as did Woods. Hell they were part of the infamous Sam Mitchell speech of 0-0-0-0. Cook wasn't and NBA basketball player; Barret neither and Pape Sow had the opportunity to play and was given it. He was just raw. All the players were given NBA time, none of them developed because they weren't good enough for NBA ball.

Again, I look at our veterans on our team, and that's why I would bring in Ukic. T2T alluded to it earlier, Jose was forced to play alot of minutes but we brought in Darrick Martin specifically to help Jose because Martin could speak Spanish. What was the first thing Jose did when he sat on the bench? Sat next to Martin and learned the game. Martin had a HUGE influence on Jose learning the NBA game. Now that we have the luxury of having two starting PG's the sam could happen for Ukic. Sit beside Martin and learn the game. Yeah, you might not get the minutes, but Peja Stojakovic in his first year didn't get the minutes but learned (just throwing out an example). Hell, with Ukic's size he could probably split time at the one and the two.

I understand that, the third string position is not that big a deal, but looking long term I'd rather have my inexperienced players learning the system and the plays before they are actually meant to make a difference 1-2 years down the road.
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Old 12-05-2007, 02:37 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Jose is a bad example. He came here a seasoned player and was an outstanding player for Tau Ceramica. His play and jumper suffered the last 2/3's of his rookie season because he was hampered by a nagging achilles injury.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:24 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Moiso had plenty of time as did Woods. Hell they were part of the infamous Sam Mitchell speech of 0-0-0-0. Cook wasn't and NBA basketball player; Barret neither and Pape Sow had the opportunity to play and was given it. He was just raw. All the players were given NBA time, none of them developed because they weren't good enough for NBA ball.

Again, I look at our veterans on our team, and that's why I would bring in Ukic. T2T alluded to it earlier, Jose was forced to play alot of minutes but we brought in Darrick Martin specifically to help Jose because Martin could speak Spanish. What was the first thing Jose did when he sat on the bench? Sat next to Martin and learned the game. Martin had a HUGE influence on Jose learning the NBA game. Now that we have the luxury of having two starting PG's the sam could happen for Ukic. Sit beside Martin and learn the game. Yeah, you might not get the minutes, but Peja Stojakovic in his first year didn't get the minutes but learned (just throwing out an example). Hell, with Ukic's size he could probably split time at the one and the two.

I understand that, the third string position is not that big a deal, but looking long term I'd rather have my inexperienced players learning the system and the plays before they are actually meant to make a difference 1-2 years down the road.
Those sound like excuses to me... none of those names got the minutes that Jose did... and granted they may not have the game to begin with but they obviously didn't develop any sitting on the bench most games either.

The line on Roko is that he isnt' ready for primetime and all the street clothed sermons by DMart in the world aren't going to make him ready. He's raw and his jump shot is suspect at best...he needs playing time. My read on Colangelo i s that if he ever does decide to ship off Jose, Roko will be over before Jose's locker chair gets cold..but not before.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:47 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Let's add a couple more names to the list of players that have developed on the Raptors bench shall we? Jerome Moiso, Omar Cook, Andre Barret, Pape Sow, Loren Woods... all studs, all playing in the dleague, europe or parts unknown. Not saying Ukic doesn't have more talent but you need playing time in games to develop young players... not practice time and cheerleading time.
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Those sound like excuses to me... none of those names got the minutes that Jose did... and granted they may not have the game to begin with but they obviously didn't develop any sitting on the bench most games either.
First of all, I gotta admit, this is fun talking ball again.

Two, Moiso had plenty of time to develop in Boston. Hell, he was given opportunity after opportunity. He just never decided to capitalize on it. Same with Woods in Minnesota. Hell, I think the year he was drafted he was their starting Centre. He was thrown, literally right to the Wolves, but he couldn't capitalize on his playing time. Andrea Barret was a fringe NBAer at best, and Omar Cook shouldn't have declared early and when he did play he was terrible in Orlando and Denver (trust me, it hurts seeing a St. John player play as poorly as he did).

But maybe I'd just have Ukic learn from NBA players and coaches rather than international players how to play the game. Again, that's how I'd want it. I agree Ukic does need the playing time and Europe will help his confidence, but I think that when Ford goes down with an injury and we're forced to play Martin I'd much rather have Ukic in those minutes because they're more crucial than anything he will play in Europe.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:53 PM   #30 (permalink)
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But maybe I'd just have Ukic learn from NBA players and coaches rather than international players how to play the game. Again, that's how I'd want it. I agree Ukic does need the playing time and Europe will help his confidence, but I think that when Ford goes down with an injury and we're forced to play Martin I'd much rather have Ukic in those minutes because they're more crucial than anything he will play in Europe.
So if Ford comes back and stays healthy the whole year as does Jose.. and Roko gets 2 mins of garbage time in 15 games over the season... do you think he takes that well and doesn't raise a stink?

Then the only 2 guys whose salary you can just swallow up are Moon or Dmart. You're suggesting keeping Dmart on the team... can Roko contribute anything near Moon? Baston is making what 3 million? Can't just chuck that.

If there were actual minutes available(i.e. we didnt' have two starting quality pg's on the team) i would agree totally. Having the kid learn behind TJ and Dmart for example like Williams in New jersey or Conley and Damon in Memphis... that makes sense because there are minutes available to actually learn the game.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:58 PM   #31 (permalink)
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So if Ford comes back and stays healthy the whole year as does Jose.. and Roko gets 2 mins of garbage time in 15 games over the season... do you think he takes that well and doesn't raise a stink?
Then the only 2 guys whose salary you can just swallow up are Moon or Dmart. You're suggesting keeping Dmart on the team... can Roko contribute anything near Moon? Baston is making what 3 million? Can't just chuck that.

If there were actual minutes available(i.e. we didnt' have two starting quality pg's on the team) i would agree totally. Having the kid learn behind TJ and Dmart for example like Williams in New jersey or Conley and Damon in Memphis... that makes sense because there are minutes available to actually learn the game.
If he raises a stink then he won't be on the team that much longer. Something I would say our culture is, team first, always team first. So, if he complains, well then he's not really suited for here.

I'm not really suggesting keep Martin at all actually. Again, he's suited best for a role on the bench. And again, that's where Ukic could learn. I don't think anyone has high expectations for Ukic, at least not I personally. And Conley is somewhat wasting away in Memphis with Lowry taking over the majority of the PG duties.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:59 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Having played ball. who you practice with makes you a better player. as i progressed through the ranks, i got better because i had to adapt to playing at a high level consistently.
im not sure of the point guard situation at lottomatica, but i'd put it out there that its nowhere near tj freakin ford and jose holy calderon. get what im saying. it also gives the coaching staff to see what the kid is capable of. putting him out there on the court gives people the chance to gauge what potential he has to be a playmaker and what not.
bringing him over and having him on the bench is far from the worst thing in the world. if anything it'd put an end to the endless speculation as to how good ukic is, or how much he looks like a poorman's jason williams. which yeah, is such a waste of a second round pick.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:05 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I think when you break it right down, there is no reason to have Darrick Martin on the team. EVery PG in the D-league is probably better than him. Hell what's Carl English doing these days. Put him in a suit make him a coach or cut the strings...He's useless on the court. Don't necessarily need to bring Ukic over...hell let ClingRap play..
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:06 PM   #34 (permalink)
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If he raises a stink then he won't be on the team that much longer. Something I would say our culture is, team first, always team first. So, if he complains, well then he's not really suited for here.

I'm not really suggesting keep Martin at all actually. Again, he's suited best for a role on the bench. And again, that's where Ukic could learn. I don't think anyone has high expectations for Ukic, at least not I personally. And Conley is somewhat wasting away in Memphis with Lowry taking over the majority of the PG duties.
I agree if he were to raise a stink then he wouldn't be what we're looking for but it's hard on young players to get that message. Look at Tmac...if you aren't going to give me the chance to be great i want out. I have no idea what character Roko has...he was a Babcock draft pick and RB was all about character... but not the best judge of it(i.e. Alston) but I can't get away from the fact he just woudlnt' have the opportunity to develop..and I have to say BC must agree with me(or is it the other way around?) or he'd be here no?

I think you'll see Damon moved by the deadline this year by which time they hope Lowry can run the show and they can mentor Conley. I think you'll see a lower priced veteran come in somehow to replace Damon perhaps in the offseason..maybe DMart? LOL
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:08 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Having played ball. who you practice with makes you a better player. as i progressed through the ranks, i got better because i had to adapt to playing at a high level consistently.
im not sure of the point guard situation at lottomatica, but i'd put it out there that its nowhere near tj freakin ford and jose holy calderon. get what im saying. it also gives the coaching staff to see what the kid is capable of. putting him out there on the court gives people the chance to gauge what potential he has to be a playmaker and what not.
bringing him over and having him on the bench is far from the worst thing in the world. if anything it'd put an end to the endless speculation as to how good ukic is, or how much he looks like a poorman's jason williams. which yeah, is such a waste of a second round pick.

I'm not saying practicing with the Raptors wouldn't make him improve at all but when you're not playing any real games you are only going to raise your game so much at that level. History shows that players who ride the bench tend to stay on the bench. Players that get some burn have a chance to get better... you dont' get to the nba if you're not a good player but to excel in the nba game you need to play the game.

Who cares about the speculation? Hype shouldn't affect player decisions..as I'm sure BC hasn't been affected..thus Roko remains in Europe.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:09 PM   #36 (permalink)
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.hell let ClingRap play..
i think i'd be a jerome williams in a point guards body. which means my whole body would be a stinger in 9.7 seconds of floor time.
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