GAME THREAD FINAL: New York Knicks 90 - Toronto Raptors 87 - Page 35
Old 02-15-2012, 11:29 AM   #681 (permalink)
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I don't think the issue is being a prick, it's expecting different from others, if you're going to do it.
Brilliance.
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:31 AM   #682 (permalink)
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I'm not saying Felton would be a huge upgrade. I think he'd be a slight upgrade because we essentially run the same pick and roll offence that the Knicks do, and Felton excels in the pick and roll game, not Portlands slow postup offence. And he's a better defender than Jose, as well as being younger than Jose.

I dont blame Jose at all for last night. You could see when Shumpert stole the ball from him, Jose was about to collapse on the court. It's difficult carrying your team the entire night, then having to go the extra mile and do it in the 4th when the defence turns up about 5 pegs.

Jose is what he is. One of the most solid, reliable, halfcourt PGs in the NBA. He doesnt turn the ball over and makes shots. He'll be a great fit this year on a near contending or contending team. Not trading him now would be another huge mistake by BC, which wont surprise me at all since BC just lives off his rep and has been terrible since coming to TOR
Yep.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:39 PM   #683 (permalink)
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defending his man is ludicrous? not turning the ball over in the crucial possessions while being guarded by a rookie is ludicrous?


and for the record, i have not laid blame only on him. i have only suggested he can't do much of what we need from a pg. he's not the only problem.

and that is why i accuse you of re-framing debates. you do it all the time.
I've laid out my argument time & time again.... maybe you'll grasp it better from Thrills. He's saying the same damn thing that I am.

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I'm not saying Felton would be a huge upgrade. I think he'd be a slight upgrade because we essentially run the same pick and roll offence that the Knicks do, and Felton excels in the pick and roll game, not Portlands slow postup offence. And he's a better defender than Jose, as well as being younger than Jose.

I dont blame Jose at all for last night. You could see when Shumpert stole the ball from him, Jose was about to collapse on the court. It's difficult carrying your team the entire night, then having to go the extra mile and do it in the 4th when the defence turns up about 5 pegs.

Jose is what he is. One of the most solid, reliable, halfcourt PGs in the NBA. He doesnt turn the ball over and makes shots. He'll be a great fit this year on a near contending or contending team. Not trading him now would be another huge mistake by BC, which wont surprise me at all since BC just lives off his rep and has been terrible since coming to TOR
Agreed 100%.

If we can get a good deal for Jose then I'm fine with trading him... but griping about his faults and pinning losses on him (after he's played AMAZING) is something that I'd only expect from the most casual of fans... not from someone who watches nearly every Raptor game and has for a many years now. Listening to you bitch about him I'd be stunned if we could get a late 2nd round pick for him lol.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:51 PM   #684 (permalink)
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you know torap, if you didn't pepper every response with ad-hominems you might have an ounce of credibility.

you said i was assigning blame wherever possible, and i responded to say that i wasn't - in fact i have congratulated jose on great play over and over throughout the last couple of weeks - but rather that he does not have the skill set for what i think we need going forward. as i've laid out plainly and simply in this thread, he played a great game yesterday, but even at his best he's getting beat regularly, and he just can't play starter's minutes. i have also said that he is only part of the problem many, many times.


thrills isn't saying the same thing as you. he's making a reasoned argument and still calling for jose to be traded if at all possible,. here's the part that you didn't bold, the first part of which i have been syaing all along and you have been disagreeing with:

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Not trading him now would be another huge mistake by BC, which wont surprise me at all since BC just lives off his rep and has been terrible since coming to TOR
if you said anything like that at any point you wouldn't be freaking out every time someone has something bad to say about your guy. it's comical how flustered you get when he gets criticized, which wouldn't be so bad if you had the ability to actually read what people are putting forward and then argue against those points instead of some inventing a point that your 'foe' never made and lambasting them for being ridiculous, ludicrous, crazy or what have you. it's tiresome, but it's also the weakest form of argument.

the great re-framer rises again.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:16 PM   #685 (permalink)
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and that, my friends, is why we need to trade jose. great game, great numbers, but in crunch time? he couldn't penetrate. the offense because stagnant. nothing but forced drives by guys who can't drive and long off-balance jumpers because the knicks don't have to put any pressure on the ball.

and on the otehr end? lin is taking advantage of him. drives, step backs, ball movement. nothing jose can do to stop it. and on teh game-winning play he's forced to give him half an acre of real estate to offset the blow-by potential, and lin just sticks it in his eye.

solid player, but not the right guy for our system, and he just can't stop dynamic point guards at all. he can put up good numbers - even great - over the course of a game, but when it comes down to an intense finish he just can't make it happen. i wish it was different, but it's not.

sell high.
LOL..... read through your post again and tell me that you're not throwing the guy under the bus. I see nothing there about how the TEAM failed as a whole. I see a whole lot there indicting Jose and blaming him for "not stepping up in the clutch" and failing to stop Lin (a player who NO ONE has been able to stop since he's been a starter).

If you're looking for a PG who's going to be able to stop dynamic PGs then you're going to be waiting a long, long time.... even Rondo doesn't do that consistently and he's 1st team all-NBA defense.

Star guards have a HUGE advantage in today's game.... more than ever before. If you can't see that then I really don't know what to tell you.

I'll also wait for you to find a post of mine that says that "we absolutely shouldn't trade Jose under any circumstances". If that's what you took out of my posts then your reading comprehension clearly isn't up to snuff.

IF a good deal is out there, YES, you deal Jose.... but you certainly don't do it just for the sake of doing a deal... and you do it with the realization that you'll be giving up the steadiest ballhandler in the game and one of the league's top assist men who also provides a good veteran presence.

If you're STILL confused after this post then I give up.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:29 PM   #686 (permalink)
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I will add my $0.02.

The difference between the way Thriller puts his "trade Jose" proposal and Coltrane expresses his "trade Jose" mantra is, in fact, huge. Thriller's post deals with the positives about our starting point guard, a class act and a great player who's done nothing but good things for this team. He then suggests that contending teams could use a lot of what Calderon brings to the table and expresses an opinion that, while trading Jose will make us truly horrid, he'd still do it to get a better chance at a higher pick and, perhaps, to give Jose a chance to compete at the highest level. I'd argue with Thriller's conclusion, but not with his premise.

Coltrane, on the other hand, always starts the next round of "trade Jose" with the negatives. Bad defense, not enough stamina, absent penetration - you always attack Jose as a basketball player and then suggest that he should be traded. As a result, such posts would always generate negative responses in people who know how hard and rare is what Jose brings to the table, regardless of whether or not they would support trading him. A bit of an advice, which you will surely ignore - try suggesting what you are suggesting while concentrating on the positives in Caldy's game. Believe it or not, they FAR outweigh the negatives, otherwise you will never, ever be able to achieve your nirvana and trade the bastard.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:30 PM   #687 (permalink)
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LOL..... read through your post again and tell me that you're not throwing the guy under the bus. I see nothing there about how the TEAM failed as a whole. I see a whole lot there indicting Jose and blaming him for "not stepping up in the clutch" and failing to stop Lin (a player who NO ONE has been able to stop since he's been a starter).

If you're looking for a PG who's going to be able to stop dynamic PGs then you're going to be waiting a long, long time.... even Rondo doesn't do that consistently and he's 1st team all-NBA defense.

Star guards have a HUGE advantage in today's game.... more than ever before. If you can't see that then I really don't know what to tell you.

I'll also wait for you to find a post of mine that says that "we absolutely shouldn't trade Jose under any circumstances". If that's what you took out of my posts then your reading comprehension clearly isn't up to snuff.

IF a good deal is out there, YES, you deal Jose.... but you certainly don't do it just for the sake of doing a deal... and you do it with the realization that you'll be giving up the steadiest ballhandler in the game and one of the league's top assist men who also provides a good veteran presence.

If you're STILL confused after this post then I give up.
there is a very, very big difference between being ok with trading jose under some circumstances (which you seem to agree with some of the time) and what thriller said, which you purport to agree with - "Not trading him now would be another huge mistake by BC, ".

nice try, but complete fail.


and now he's 'the steadiest ballhandler in the game.' full stop. ?? really? that's hyperbole that's beyond even you torap.


now, back to my post - the original one - where you say that i threw him under the bus and blamed him for failing to stop lin. there is some truth to that, and some fiction, but it misses the point. never did i blame him solely for the loss. there were lots of reasons for us not keeping the lead through the 4th. but no one is responsible for his trunover at a crucial time but him, and no one is responsible for him being so slow in terms of lateral movement that he needs to give lin that much space to operate that he can just take an open shot.

what i said was that he's a good player who can put up great numbers, but he's clearly not the answer for us and we should look to trade him because we need a guy that can do some important things that he has been unable to do. and i have named those things many times.

i'm not confused at all torap, and have never said i was. what i am saying is that you aren't reading my posts clearly and you are ascribing positions to me that i haven't taken. it's eitehr dumb or dishonest, and i no longer know which.

adding lol or calling me ludicrous is not an argument torap. it's just silly window dressing.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:37 PM   #688 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
I will add my $0.02.

The difference between the way Thriller puts his "trade Jose" proposal and Coltrane expresses his "trade Jose" mantra is, in fact, huge. Thriller's post deals with the positives about our starting point guard, a class act and a great player who's done nothing but good things for this team. He then suggests that contending teams could use a lot of what Calderon brings to the table and expresses an opinion that, while trading Jose will make us truly horrid, he'd still do it to get a better chance at a higher pick and, perhaps, to give Jose a chance to compete at the highest level. I'd argue with Thriller's conclusion, but not with his premise.

Coltrane, on the other hand, always starts the next round of "trade Jose" with the negatives. Bad defense, not enough stamina, absent penetration - you always attack Jose as a basketball player and then suggest that he should be traded. As a result, such posts would always generate negative responses in people who know how hard and rare is what Jose brings to the table, regardless of whether or not they would support trading him. A bit of an advice, which you will surely ignore - try suggesting what you are suggesting while concentrating on the positives in Caldy's game - believe it or not, they FAR outweigh the negatives, otherwise you will never, ever be able to achieve your nirvana and trade the bastard.
i have never purported to take thriller's position on this. not sure if you were implying that i had.

as to celebrating jose's positives, or, concersely, always starting with teh negatives, does each post have to be read independantly of the otehrs? this is what i said about Calderon in teh boston game thread:

Quote:
calderon was fantastic last night, solid on both ends of the floor.
or in this game thread:

Quote:
jose playing the best ball of his career over the last stretch, and it looks to be continuing again today.

in teh post in question i also said:
-great game, great numbers
-solid player, but not the right guy for our system
- i wish it was different


how many compliments do i have to make before i lob a criticism?
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:41 PM   #689 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
I will add my $0.02.

The difference between the way Thriller puts his "trade Jose" proposal and Coltrane expresses his "trade Jose" mantra is, in fact, huge. Thriller's post deals with the positives about our starting point guard, a class act and a great player who's done nothing but good things for this team. He then suggests that contending teams could use a lot of what Calderon brings to the table and expresses an opinion that, while trading Jose will make us truly horrid, he'd still do it to get a better chance at a higher pick and, perhaps, to give Jose a chance to compete at the highest level. I'd argue with Thriller's conclusion, but not with his premise.

Coltrane, on the other hand, always starts the next round of "trade Jose" with the negatives. Bad defense, not enough stamina, absent penetration - you always attack Jose as a basketball player and then suggest that he should be traded. As a result, such posts would always generate negative responses in people who know how hard and rare is what Jose brings to the table, regardless of whether or not they would support trading him. A bit of an advice, which you will surely ignore - try suggesting what you are suggesting while concentrating on the positives in Caldy's game. Believe it or not, they FAR outweigh the negatives, otherwise you will never, ever be able to achieve your nirvana and trade the bastard.
Another guy who doesn't seem to have a problem grasping the issue clearly.

I'm out... because this is smacking of the Durant @ C argument right now.

Fuck sakes lol.... SJ... Mike.. bjjs... Thrills... myself... I don't know how many posters have to share an opinion contrary to his own before 'trane backs down admits that he might be wrong.

It's pointless.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:41 PM   #690 (permalink)
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how many compliments do i have to make before i lob a criticism?
You don't have to do anything. I was merely trying to analyze why two posters who essentially propose the same thing generate such different reactions.

OK, let's try it from a different angle. Forget compliments and trade requests. This is the thread about NYK game that our team is lost. What (or who), in your opinion, was the biggest contributing factor to this loss? You don't have to provide much reasoning, it doesn't have to be a long response - just make a list if one factor is not enough and post it.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:42 PM   #691 (permalink)
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Another guy who doesn't seem to have a problem grasping the issue clearly.

I'm out... because this is smacking of the Durant @ C argument right now.

Fuck sakes lol.... SJ... Mike.. bjjs... Thrills... myself... I don't know how many posters have to share an opinion contrary to his own before 'trane backs down admits that he might be wrong.

It's pointless.

thriller doesn't make the same points as you. for the most part, neither does sj, altyhough he flip-flops at times. bjjs has openly disagreed with you in this thread.

you and mike. well.... not exactly who i would pick as the guys i want showing support for my position.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:45 PM   #692 (permalink)
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People need to get to know this Jesus, look at his power, and what he can do. the word is active and living, and you can see it through people like Jeremy Lin.
I was gonna say something but I gave up... don't get me wrong I respect people's views on religion (ALL my friends are religious and so are my parents). But whenever I try to start a conversation with them about religion it just ends up like this...

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Old 02-15-2012, 02:47 PM   #693 (permalink)
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You don't have to do anything. I was merely trying to analyze why two posters who essentially propose the same thing generate such different reactions.

OK, let's try it from a different angle. Forget compliments and trade requests. This is the thread about NYK game that our team is lost. What (or who), in your opinion, was the biggest contributing factor to this loss? You don't have to provide much reasoning, it doesn't have to be a long response - just make a list if one factor is not enough and post it.
our team is not very good. ny is better. they have better post players and better guards. we were lucky that they played pretty bad and jose played really well over 3 quarters and we had the lead.

and i don't blame jose for the loss. i just said it is illustrative of why i think he lacks some of the skllls we need from a starting point guard. all i did was point to some problems he had which contributed to a swing in points as the game was closing out.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:48 PM   #694 (permalink)
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Let's just all agree that it was an extremely disappointing effort by Ole Calderon on the most important defensive possession of the game.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:51 PM   #695 (permalink)
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and that, my friends, is why we need to trade jose. great game, great numbers, but in crunch time? he couldn't penetrate. the offense because stagnant. nothing but forced drives by guys who can't drive and long off-balance jumpers because the knicks don't have to put any pressure on the ball.

and on the otehr end? lin is taking advantage of him. drives, step backs, ball movement. nothing jose can do to stop it. and on teh game-winning play he's forced to give him half an acre of real estate to offset the blow-by potential, and lin just sticks it in his eye.

solid player, but not the right guy for our system, and he just can't stop dynamic point guards at all. he can put up good numbers - even great - over the course of a game, but when it comes down to an intense finish he just can't make it happen. i wish it was different, but it's not.

sell high.

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our team is not very good. ny is better. they have better post players and better guards. we were lucky that they played pretty bad and jose played really well over 3 quarters and we had the lead.

and i don't blame jose for the loss. i just said it is illustrative of why i think he lacks some of the skllls we need from a starting point guard. all i did was point to some problems he had which contributed to a swing in points as the game was closing out.
Please, take a step back and compare the two quotes. Do you see the difference?

You might not mean to blame Jose for the loss with the first quote, but it sounds like you do regardless - do you see that? Do you also understand that that's precisely why TORap or I react the way we do to such posts?

Have you started with the second quote, you'd have saved us from a lot of needless typing...
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:53 PM   #696 (permalink)
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And on "stopping dynamic point guards" - could we please stop with that as well? At least until you give me a name of at least one player in the entire league who can "stop a dynamic point guard" one-on-one.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:55 PM   #697 (permalink)
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Trade Jose and tank hard. Would you rather have a top 5 pick or the 14th pick? We're tanking this year right? If we're going to do it now, we might as well do it well so as to assemble our winning team sooner rather than later.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:57 PM   #698 (permalink)
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Trade Jose and tank hard. Would you rather have a top 5 pick or the 14th pick? We're tanking this year right? If we're going to do it now, we might as well do it well so as to assemble our winning team sooner rather than later.
Shouldn't have signed Casey either. In fact, BC should have fielded Carter, Forbes, Butler, Gray, Magloire starting lineup coached by Triano to run-and-gun.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:58 PM   #699 (permalink)
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our team is not very good. ny is better. they have better post players and better guards. we were lucky that they played pretty bad and jose played really well over 3 quarters and we had the lead.

and i don't blame jose for the loss. i just said it is illustrative of why i think he lacks some of the skllls we need from a starting point guard. all i did was point to some problems he had which contributed to a swing in points as the game was closing out.
Serious question.... do you think that if we had a PG here last night who had the ability to penetrate and defend better the outcome would have been different? If that PG would have had to carry us the entire game?

We had 18 TOs as a TEAM. Jose was responsible for 4 of them. Sucks that 2 of them were in the final moments, yes, but not surprising considering his fatigue and the quality of the defender that was on him.

We also gave up some critical offensive rebounds in the last 2 minutes which ended up as baskets for Lin. No mention of how the bigs failed in those moments?

Even the final shot when Jose was defending Lin... what's the scouting report on the guy? DON'T let him get into the lane... and force him left. Jose was playing him with both of those things in mind. A rookie PG hit a shot which is considered "low percentage" for him. He made it. You say "nice shot" and you move on. That's basketball.

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And on "stopping dynamic point guards" - could we please stop with that as well? At least until you give me a name of at least one player in the entire league who can "stop a dynamic point guard" one-on-one.
I'd like to know this as well. It's one of those things that SOUNDS really good.... until you realize that there isn't a PG in the game today who does those things. Not Rondo... not Lowry... not Rose... not Paul.

Last edited by TORaptor4Ever; 02-15-2012 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:59 PM   #700 (permalink)
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Shouldn't have signed Casey either. In fact, BC should have fielded Carter, Forbes, Butler, Gray, Magloire starting lineup coached by Triano to run-and-gun.
Don't tell me that, I'm not the GM of this team
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