GAME THREAD FINAL: New York Knicks 90 - Toronto Raptors 87 - Page 31
Old 02-14-2012, 11:38 PM   #601 (permalink)
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Calderon is an excellent pick-and-roll PG (yes, 'trane, this is your cue). He is doing it well with Amir, he will do even better with Jonas next year. His pick-and-pop game with Bargnani also works very well.

No PG in the world is going to turn DD into Kobe. Wrong head on a wrong body.
So what about dd and Ed? They're not young talent?

I say tank hard (where butler is good at). Trade assets like Jose for picks or prospects. His value is pretty high right now and if he gets injured/age catches up we end up with nothing. Make the most with what you have right now, because as a team these guys don't fit together (evident by our record)
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:38 PM   #602 (permalink)
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So you think that Kleiza's and Barbosa's contributions have been more vital to this team than Jose's?
Did i say that? Good lord, are you seriously that sensitive? All i'm saying is that our young players aren't exactly showing much growth and it's more the veterans keeping us in games. Including Jose, but our young players growth tied to Jose is hogwash. And if it is he's failing.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:39 PM   #603 (permalink)
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I'd like to have Calderon here as a 20 min a game, 3 mil back up to a PG who can break down defenses.

As for Derozan, he needs to learn to defend better and become an opportunistic 3rd or 4th option, not THE guy leading your team.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:41 PM   #604 (permalink)
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Raptors looser, all fans tired after Raptors all time loser game, what you expexted? I vote for Lin too, i like when Lin kick Craptors ass, why? because Craptros play bad basketball, and you need blame players who play like girls every night, not fans who tired see this every night.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:41 PM   #605 (permalink)
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Putting all opinions of Jose aside, that was some cowardly defense in the crunch. You can score 40 but providing absolutely no resistance with 5 seconds on the clock isn't going to endear you to any teammates.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:41 PM   #606 (permalink)
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So what about dd and Ed? They're not young talent?

I say tank hard (where butler is good at). Trade assets like Jose for picks or prospects. His value is pretty high right now and if he gets injured/age catches up we end up with nothing. Make the most with what you have right now, because as a team these guys don't fit together (evident by our record)
Ah, so now Calderon is also to blame for Davis' and DeRozan's realtively poor play this season (both were uneven rather than regressing, BTW)?

Do they get the ball often enough? Yes. In a good position to score? Yes. Jose's job is done.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:44 PM   #607 (permalink)
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So, all this reasoning makes you blame this loss on Jose?
No, I'm telling you why I don't blame Derozan.

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He is to blame for this loss because he has a large contract, is 30 and a finished product?
No, Mike, that's what makes him different from Derozan, and more attractive to trade.

You probably don't remember, but I posted my specific views in TWO other threads. I, personally, don't think we can get anybody better right away. However, that doesn't mean it couldn't be beneficial to move Jose. I just see few realistica alternatives in the next 12 months. For example, maybe Portland wants Jose, but getting Felton back might not actually help much, because Felton, despite playing well for stretches in Dantoni's system, has looked really average for Denver and Porltand.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:45 PM   #608 (permalink)
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Ah, so now Calderon is also to blame for Davis' and DeRozan's realtively poor play this season (both were uneven rather than regressing, BTW)?
I believe you have implied that earlier by saying "young talent" so I don't see the point of going back and forth on this matter.

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Do they get the ball often enough? Yes. In a good position to score? Yes. Jose's job is done.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:47 PM   #609 (permalink)
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Ok, so Jose getting traded away would stunt the growth of our young players ......yet their lack of growth and obvious regression has nothing to do with Jose?

I've got a headache.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:49 PM   #610 (permalink)
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You probably don't remember, but I posted my specific views in TWO other threads. I, personally, don't think we can get anybody better right away. However, that doesn't mean it couldn't be beneficial to move Jose.
Sorry, I probably missed your opinions on the other two threads. Let's get to it here. If you don't think we can get anybody better right away, why do you think it's still beneficial to move Jose? For the sole purpose of getting worse yet?
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:49 PM   #611 (permalink)
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Ok, so Jose getting traded away would stunt the growth of our young players ......yet their lack of growth and obvious regression has nothing to do with Jose?

I've got a headache.
:cookie:
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:50 PM   #612 (permalink)
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Ok, so Jose getting traded away would stunt the growth of our young players ......yet their lack of growth and obvious regression has nothing to do with Jose?

I've got a headache.
Take some Advil.

What part of the above do you find confusing? That a facilitating point guard can only do so much to help his teammates(as in, they still need to make shots)? Or that the absence of such would stunt their growth as players and as a team?
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:51 PM   #613 (permalink)
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Ok, so Jose getting traded away would stunt the growth of our young players ......yet their lack of growth and obvious regression has nothing to do with Jose?
agree
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:54 PM   #614 (permalink)
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Ok, so Jose getting traded away would stunt the growth of our young players ......yet their lack of growth and obvious regression has nothing to do with Jose?

I've got a headache.
Steady play at the PG position is important for ANY team to be successful unless you have a star 2 or 3 who can handle the ball.

Jose provides that steady play.

If DD misses shots or doesn't drive it to the basket it's not on Jose... it's on DD.

If Ed Davis doesn't finish in traffic or doesn't rebound or block shots it's not on Jose... it's on Ed.

If our team isn't moving the ball, isn't getting our bigs involved, is putting up bad shots and is turning it over way too much then THAT's on Jose.

Clear enough?
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:57 PM   #615 (permalink)
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Steady play at the PG position is important for ANY team to be successful unless you have a star 2 or 3 who can handle the ball.

Jose provides that steady play.

If DD misses shots or doesn't drive it to the basket it's not on Jose... it's on DD.

If Ed Davis doesn't finish in traffic or doesn't rebound or block shots it's not on Jose... it's on Ed.

If our team isn't moving the ball, isn't getting our bigs involved, is putting up bad shots and is turning it over way too much then THAT's on Jose.

Clear enough?
Nope. Why doesn't Jose help to lift Davis off the floor so that extra height is achieved, necessary for ALL the shots to be blocked?! He could also talk the angels into better guiding DD's bricks into the basket. Oh, wait a minute. That's Lin's job.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:57 PM   #616 (permalink)
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Take some Advil.

What part of the above do you find confusing? That a facilitating point guard can only do so much to help his teammates? Or that the absence of such would stunt their growth as players and as a team?
As a team where have we gone with Jose here? Have we won a playoff round, how many winning seasons have we had? Maybe a change in direction at the PG position with this coach would do us some good and help our young players, depending on who is brought in? Maybe not but i'm willing and hoping we try it. Because for all the flashes we've seen from Jose we've done nothing with him. At some point we need to try something/someone new. He will not get any better than he is right now, why not trade him if a good deal is there? If we're truely going to change the culture he needs to go one way or the other.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:57 PM   #617 (permalink)
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Sorry, I probably missed your opinions on the other two threads.
Here's part of it. I just don't see many options:
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Honestly, I'm having a hard time figuring out how the Raps will get a good, young poing guard (or PG prospect) in the next year. I could see the Raps stealing a guy like George Hill, if B.C overpays and Indiana wants to keep money available for an FA this summer. Or I can see B.C either rolling with Jose next year or having to make a move for a guy like Parker if he insists on making some kind of splash (even if it's a baby splash). I don't see anything sexy happening at the PG spot in the next year or so. I hope I'm wrong.
And back to you...


Quote:
Let's get to it here. If you don't think we can get anybody better right away, why do you think it's still beneficial to move Jose? For the sole purpose of getting worse yet?
It could be beneficial if it's part of a longer term plan. "Could be". If moving Jose enables upgrades at other spots, then you might have a net gain. Depends what you can get. But, like I said, I have so much difficulty seeing a move happen in the next 12 months, that I've given up calling for trades. Unless a team gets desperate, and offers BC something sweet, I increasingly think Jose will stay here and eventually re-sign to become the back-up.

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Old 02-15-2012, 12:00 AM   #618 (permalink)
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As a team where have we gone with Jose here? Have we won a playoff round, how many winning seasons have we had? Maybe a change in direction at the PG position with this coach would do us some good and help our young players, depending on who is brought in? Maybe not but i'm willing and hoping we try it. Because for all the flashes we've seen from Jose we've done nothing with him. At some point we need to try something/someone new. He will not get any better than he is right now, why not trade him if a good deal is there? If we're truely going to change the culture he needs to go one way or the other.
OMG, the mystical "good deal"... Would a deal that leaves us with Bayless as a starter and Carter as his backup be a good deal?!

I am not saying "No" to any trade involving Calderon. I just can't realistically see any such trade that would improve our team, short or long term.

In short - don't trade Calderon until you clearly have a replacement.
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:00 AM   #619 (permalink)
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The nationalist stuff just seems so lame. Again, I could be wrong, but I don't recall the same overwhelmingly positive and supportive reaction towards Steve Nash when he came in wearing an opposing uniform.

But, you're sort of right about the people who stayed home. The sad thing is, some of the most hardcore Raps fans don't have enough disposable income to show up to more than a few games, if that. Tough to beat the Lin fans to the punch. I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of Leaf fan season ticket holders sold their Raps tickets to Lin fans...
Many people, especially recent immigrants to Canada, still feel deep ties with their home country, and especially when you're talking about a relatively new sport, it's understandable to feel pride towards a fellow countrymen. I'm sure there wouldn't be nearly as much excitement if this was table tennis or whatever else is popular over there, but basketball is huge in China and they had few nba players.

as far as disposable income, the quality of the team probably has as much to do with the absence of hardcore fans as any other reasons ... Hard to feel too excited, particularly if you're hailing from the armored division ...
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:00 AM   #620 (permalink)
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As a team where have we gone with Jose here? Have we won a playoff round, how many winning seasons have we had? Maybe a change in direction at the PG position with this coach would do us some good and help our young players, depending on who is brought in? Maybe not but i'm willing and hoping we try it. Because for all the flashes we've seen from Jose we've done nothing with him. At some point we need to try something/someone new. He will not get any better than he is right now, why not trade him if a good deal is there? If we're truely going to change the culture he needs to go one way or the other.
Sweet. So we're back to the same arguments that were being levelled against Bosh when we he was here.... and guess what? Our team sucked THEN too!

ONE PLAYER WILL NOT TAKE THIS SORRY-ASS TEAM ANYWHERE.

TEAMS win titles... not players. No matter how much the media would like you to believe otherwise.
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