Ford In Indiana Article - Page 2
Old 07-21-2008, 11:43 AM   #21 (permalink)
is back baby

Large and in charge
 
Snooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: All up in there
Posts: 8,160
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by •LX• View Post
If TJ was so awful and incompetent, how come he was able to make Rasho into a ~20 pt guy fairly often, while Jose made Rasho into a DNP fairly often? TJ was hardly the beginning-middle-and-end of the pain last season. I remember some pretty ugly losses when he wasn't in the lineup, and some wins that he pulled out when Bosh was out or not 100 percent. The only problem with TJ was that between him and Calderon, it got difficult to build a team around the two of them. Now the team has committed to Jose, and they have also committed to building a team that works well specifically with Jose, instead of having too many guys that could be plugged into the lineup in too many ways with too many varying results.
TJ Made Rasho a 20ppg player because TJ misses alot of shot allowing Rasho to get putbacks. And furthermore all Rashos points are not contributed to TJ but to the Team. Same with TJ Faults(to some extent) When Rasho scored 20 TJ didn't pass him the ball 10 times.
Snooch is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 12:54 PM   #22 (permalink)
confused why the raptors are so consistantly inconsistant

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 843
Representing:
Default

also u have to understand that getting the ball to Bosh is our main priority. Something jose did a superb job and tj couldnt.
the_ raps_analyst is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 01:39 PM   #23 (permalink)
LX
with pink peppercorns

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,637
Representing:
Default

C'mon - TJ didn't miss that many more shots than Jose. I have never gotten into the bashing TJ as a non-team guy. If anything the team relied on him to take shots a little too much, because there just wasn't that reliable scorer to compliment Bosh.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 01:59 PM   #24 (permalink)
confused why the raptors are so consistantly inconsistant

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 843
Representing:
Default

do u mean in the 4th quarter where players are open and he dashes the ball at the rim with 20 seconds left on the shot clock
the_ raps_analyst is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 02:04 PM   #25 (permalink)
is back baby

Large and in charge
 
Snooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: All up in there
Posts: 8,160
Representing:
Default

TJ shot 30% from 3 and 47% from the feild
Jose shot 43% from the 3 and 52% from the feild.

Jose took 183 more fg and 133 more shots from 3

Ford averaged 0.48 shots per minute and Jose 0.36
Snooch is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 02:09 PM   #26 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

RF Affiliate
 
Adequate Swag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 513
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_ raps_analyst View Post
do u mean in the 4th quarter where players are open and he dashes the ball at the rim with 20 seconds left on the shot clock
I would venture a guess and say no, he doesn't mean that.

I would also venture a guess and say that you made up that scenario, because I certainly don't recall that happening on a regular basis last year.

About a year and a half ago everyone was loving TJ's willingness to "take and make the big shots" and his aggressiveness was being praised. That sure changed quick.

He had one stretch of games in March/April where his play could perhaps be labelled as selfish. At the same time, he was missing shots, and if those were falling I would guess most fans would have been singing a different tune.

TJ's style of play was well documented the entire time he was here. He's a point guard who likes to get to the rim and isn't afraid to take shots. Does he sometimes shoot a little more than he should? I guess, but no one was complaining when he was the driving force behind a bunch of wins.

Just because we found a better player to replace him doesn't make him any worse. Just because he's on a different team doesn't make him any worse.

I mean, you guys know were allowed to support a player after he's been traded right?
Adequate Swag is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 02:13 PM   #27 (permalink)
is back baby

Large and in charge
 
Snooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: All up in there
Posts: 8,160
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adequate Swag View Post
I would venture a guess and say no, he doesn't mean that.

I would also venture a guess and say that you made up that scenario, because I certainly don't recall that happening on a regular basis last year.

About a year and a half ago everyone was loving TJ's willingness to "take and make the big shots" and his aggressiveness was being praised. That sure changed quick.

He had one stretch of games in March/April where his play could perhaps be labelled as selfish. At the same time, he was missing shots, and if those were falling I would guess most fans would have been singing a different tune.

TJ's style of play was well documented the entire time he was here. He's a point guard who likes to get to the rim and isn't afraid to take shots. Does he sometimes shoot a little more than he should? I guess, but no one was complaining when he was the driving force behind a bunch of wins.

Just because we found a better player to replace him doesn't make him any worse. Just because he's on a different team doesn't make him any worse.

I mean, you guys know were allowed to support a player after he's been traded right?
I support the Snooch...

Say what you want about TJ not passing etc, there is no argueing that he took more shots than Jose while on the court(would rather Jose took more shots and could argue some of TJ's shots he had to take) and made them at a rate far below that of Jose.
Snooch is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 02:17 PM   #28 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,290
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adequate Swag View Post
I would venture a guess and say no, he doesn't mean that.

I would also venture a guess and say that you made up that scenario, because I certainly don't recall that happening on a regular basis last year.

About a year and a half ago everyone was loving TJ's willingness to "take and make the big shots" and his aggressiveness was being praised. That sure changed quick.

He had one stretch of games in March/April where his play could perhaps be labelled as selfish. At the same time, he was missing shots, and if those were falling I would guess most fans would have been singing a different tune.

TJ's style of play was well documented the entire time he was here. He's a point guard who likes to get to the rim and isn't afraid to take shots. Does he sometimes shoot a little more than he should? I guess, but no one was complaining when he was the driving force behind a bunch of wins.

Just because we found a better player to replace him doesn't make him any worse. Just because he's on a different team doesn't make him any worse.

I mean, you guys know were allowed to support a player after he's been traded right?
Your hypothetical senario is wonderful....."nobody would have cared if the shots went in".

Ummm geeee....wonderful....OF COURSE NOT.

Fact is they weren't, and he consistanly got to the rim...and couldn't finish. He took his players out of the game, by getting into personal matchups with opposing PG's, you're right though he didn't always take a shot with 20 secs left on the clock...he often dribbled the clock out....drove and kicked it out with .2 seconds left on the clock, than gave a dirty look to Kapono for not hitting it with a hand in his face.

Fact is he didn't.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 02:20 PM   #29 (permalink)
is back baby

Large and in charge
 
Snooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: All up in there
Posts: 8,160
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
Your hypothetical senario is wonderful....."nobody would have cared if the shots went in".

Ummm geeee....wonderful....OF COURSE NOT.

Fact is they weren't, and he consistanly got to the rim...and couldn't finish. He took his players out of the game, by getting into personal matchups with opposing PG's, you're right though he didn't always take a shot with 20 secs left on the clock...he often dribbled the clock out....drove and kicked it out with .2 seconds left on the clock, than gave a dirty look to Kapono for not hitting it with a hand in his face.

Fact is he didn't.
You forgot the whole, dribble off you own foot then give the refs a dirty look play as well....
Snooch is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 03:00 PM   #30 (permalink)
confused why the raptors are so consistantly inconsistant

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 843
Representing:
Default

he was always very cocky for some reason. when u watch him play and after he hits a shot he looks all angry and thinks hes the best player on the world. But when he misses, he keeps shooting and doesnt let other players get involved.
the_ raps_analyst is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 03:07 PM   #31 (permalink)
is back baby

Large and in charge
 
Snooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: All up in there
Posts: 8,160
Representing:
Default

^^Cant argue that the Guys got heart for miles, he just doesn't have a great PG mentality, never did.

He is a SG trapped in a PG body. If he were 2 inches taller and shot better I could see him being an Iverson type player. Shoot 30 times score 30 points, get 6 assists control the ball 80% of the teams posessions
Snooch is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 03:52 PM   #32 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

RF Affiliate
 
Adequate Swag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 513
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
Your hypothetical senario is wonderful....."nobody would have cared if the shots went in".

Ummm geeee....wonderful....OF COURSE NOT.

Fact is they weren't, and he consistanly got to the rim...and couldn't finish. He took his players out of the game, by getting into personal matchups with opposing PG's, you're right though he didn't always take a shot with 20 secs left on the clock...he often dribbled the clock out....drove and kicked it out with .2 seconds left on the clock, than gave a dirty look to Kapono for not hitting it with a hand in his face.

Fact is he didn't.
You've isolated one sentence here and ignored what I was trying to say on the whole.

The point I was making was that at one point people praised TJ for doing the same things they criticized him for a year later.

When he hits shots he's "aggressive", "clutch", "taking over the game", "not afraid to take the big shot".

When he misses shots he's "selfish", "stupid", "not getting his teammates involved"

I've gone on the good shots are good shots and bad shots are bad shots whether they go in or not rant before, and this is a situation where it is particularly relevant.

I'm not saying TJ was a great player for us last year or ever, and I'm not saying he didnt do plenty of things that irked me as a fan. But those things irked me when Raptors fans in general were having a TJ love-in just as much as they did when everyone hated him.

So again, I'm not trying to stand up for TJ's play here. I'm simply saying that the general consensus on TJ has always been extremes. At one point everyone loved him, and now everyone seems to hate the guy. How is that the case when he's basically the same player he was two years ago?
Adequate Swag is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 03:54 PM   #33 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,290
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adequate Swag View Post
You've isolated one sentence here and ignored what I was trying to say on the whole.

The point I was making was that at one point people praised TJ for doing the same things they criticized him for a year later.

When he hits shots he's "aggressive", "clutch", "taking over the game", "not afraid to take the big shot".

When he misses shots he's "selfish", "stupid", "not getting his teammates involved"


I've gone on the good shots are good shots and bad shots are bad shots whether they go in or not rant before, and this is a situation where it is particularly relevant.

I'm not saying TJ was a great player for us last year or ever, and I'm not saying he didnt do plenty of things that irked me as a fan. But those things irked me when Raptors fans in general were having a TJ love-in just as much as they did when everyone hated him.

So again, I'm not trying to stand up for TJ's play here. I'm simply saying that the general consensus on TJ has always been extremes. At one point everyone loved him, and now everyone seems to hate the guy. How is that the case when he's basically the same player he was two years ago?
I can only speak for myself....I never loved him....and most here know that....

The bolded part of your statement, is true for every position on the court except for the PG.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 04:00 PM   #34 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

RF Affiliate
 
Adequate Swag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 513
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
I can only speak for myself....I never loved him....and most here know that....

The bolded part of your statement, is true for every position on the court except for the PG.
I can't speak on your personal opinions obviously, or for that matter anyone on these forums, because I haven't been here long enough to assess that.

So yes, I suppose for all I know everyone here could have hated him the whole time.

I was speaking more of the media and of Raptors fans in general from my experience.
Adequate Swag is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2008, 05:23 PM   #35 (permalink)
confused why the raptors are so consistantly inconsistant

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 843
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnoochieBoochie View Post
^^Cant argue that the Guys got heart for miles, he just doesn't have a great PG mentality, never did.

He is a SG trapped in a PG body. If he were 2 inches taller and shot better I could see him being an Iverson type player. Shoot 30 times score 30 points, get 6 assists control the ball 80% of the teams posessions
sometimes he let his ego get in his way and it hurt us alot. Also i think if he were two inches taller and broader shoulders because this guy is real small in width.
the_ raps_analyst is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2008, 01:18 AM   #36 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,312
Representing:
Default

Love him or hate him, he was the only guy on our team who could truely create his own shot at will, now we have no players that can do that, and its a scary situation to be in

I agree TJ often took ill advised shots and turned it over at times, but just watch the Raptors when he has the ball sometimes.... no movement, every1 standing around watching the TJ show cuz he was the only guy that could penetrate and move the D around.
Ugo Ferst is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2008, 06:42 AM   #37 (permalink)
LX
with pink peppercorns

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,637
Representing:
Default

Talking about the guy taking 30 shots and playing like Iverson just illustrates my point. The guy just never showed a need to shoot it anywhere close that amount. His ego got the better of him in a few situations, and those get completely magnified.

He racked up a ton of assists on many nights, and you know - not really so many TOs. It was his passing that made me appreciate him. The man made some beautiful passes and created easy buckets for everyone. And yes he did show some greatness for us, believe it or not. To say he was never great here is crazy. His game got much better since his initial arrival. I will agree that he was too much of a focal point at the end of quarters, and he needed to finish much better around the rim, although he was finishing very nicely before the Horford foul.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2008, 07:18 AM   #38 (permalink)
is back baby

Large and in charge
 
Snooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: All up in there
Posts: 8,160
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by •LX• View Post
Talking about the guy taking 30 shots and playing like Iverson just illustrates my point. The guy just never showed a need to shoot it anywhere close that amount. His ego got the better of him in a few situations, and those get completely magnified.

He racked up a ton of assists on many nights, and you know - not really so many TOs. It was his passing that made me appreciate him. The man made some beautiful passes and created easy buckets for everyone. And yes he did show some greatness for us, believe it or not. To say he was never great here is crazy. His game got much better since his initial arrival. I will agree that he was too much of a focal point at the end of quarters, and he needed to finish much better around the rim, although he was finishing very nicely before the Horford foul.

I would never say that TJ isnt a very good player and he obviously plays very hard every game, thats not my point.

His game did improve over what he brought for the Bucks, especially his shooting precentages.

About beautiful passes, I could care less, I want effective passes, but yeah, some passes were just redonkulous.

Being a focal point at the end of quarters was as much the Amitches fault as TJs.

The biggest problem was that the team seemed to give up on TJ, not running any plays and seeming generally lost on offense. Wheather that was TJs fault for not calling out any sort of play or the Smitches fault for not running any set play.

The biggest problem of all for TJ on this team is that the type of talent assembled on it is made exclusivly for ball movement and team play and TJ is made for an athletic, running, freestyle type of team and it just wasn't a good fit. TJ needed to go to a gaurd oriented team to really thrive.

All this aside I still stand by my originally posting that TJ is indeed a SG trapped in a PG body.
Snooch is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2008, 02:38 PM   #39 (permalink)
LX
with pink peppercorns

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,637
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnoochieBoochie View Post
I would never say that TJ isnt a very good player and he obviously plays very hard every game, thats not my point.

His game did improve over what he brought for the Bucks, especially his shooting precentages.

About beautiful passes, I could care less, I want effective passes, but yeah, some passes were just redonkulous.

Being a focal point at the end of quarters was as much the Amitches fault as TJs.

The biggest problem was that the team seemed to give up on TJ, not running any plays and seeming generally lost on offense. Wheather that was TJs fault for not calling out any sort of play or the Smitches fault for not running any set play.

The biggest problem of all for TJ on this team is that the type of talent assembled on it is made exclusivly for ball movement and team play and TJ is made for an athletic, running, freestyle type of team and it just wasn't a good fit. TJ needed to go to a gaurd oriented team to really thrive.

All this aside I still stand by my originally posting that TJ is indeed a SG trapped in a PG body.
Many good points I can live with. Personally I prefer fewer set plays and offenses micro-managed from the sideline. But I have to agree that there was something missing in this lineup that TJ was never going to solve. Actually Jose was not going to solve it either, which is why I think there has been an attempt to just bring a more balanced approach on both sides of the ball, and just rely on the pg play a little less. The passes on all accounts, not just from the pg position, should be more effective this season, with better role definition likely in place. Jose has a good bond with the coach, so he should be able to run things more effectively without any need for micromanaging.

And TJ will do quite well in Indy. Even with a very unathletic, non-freestyle, non-running Rasho. The pigeonholing just doesn't quite work. I don't mind people disliking him, with reasons or not. I just find my head spinning with waves of sheer hate, followed by heartfelt affirmations that nobody really hates him - he's a good player, just not a good fit - with big helpings of him not being a team guy no matter how many assists he got in his 20-25 minutes a night and only looking for Bosh while not getting the ball to Bosh enough. How this team made the playoffs the last two years with the guy becomes a little mysterious.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2008, 02:41 PM   #40 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,290
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by •LX• View Post
Many good points I can live with. Personally I prefer fewer set plays and offenses micro-managed from the sideline. But I have to agree that there was something missing in this lineup that TJ was never going to solve. Actually Jose was not going to solve it either, which is why I think there has been an attempt to just bring a more balanced approach on both sides of the ball, and just rely on the pg play a little less. The passes on all accounts, not just from the pg position, should be more effective this season, with better role definition likely in place. Jose has a good bond with the coach, so he should be able to run things more effectively without any need for micromanaging.

And TJ will do quite well in Indy. Even with a very unathletic, non-freestyle, non-running Rasho. The pigeonholing just doesn't quite work. I don't mind people disliking him, with reasons or not. I just find my head spinning with waves of sheer hate, followed by heartfelt affirmations that nobody really hates him - he's a good player, just not a good fit - with big helpings of him not being a team guy no matter how many assists he got in his 20-25 minutes a night and only looking for Bosh while not getting the ball to Bosh enough. How this team made the playoffs the last two years with the guy becomes a little mysterious.

If it makes you feel any better, I find absolutly nothing redeeming about T.J Ford.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
In Colangelo we believe (Article) KETJE079 Toronto Raptors 17 07-09-2009 09:58 AM
TJ Ford Interview/article with Michael Grange from The Globe BballWatcher Toronto Raptors 8 12-14-2007 04:21 PM
Another Jamario Article Dr. J. Naismith Toronto Raptors 1 12-12-2007 11:42 AM
Feschuk Article Tommy2Tymes Toronto Raptors 5 12-05-2007 03:38 PM
Good Feschuk Article Dr. J. Naismith NBA Talk 1 12-03-2007 11:33 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24