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-   -   The Five Biggest IF's in the East - Re: Jermaine (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/five-biggest-ifs-east-re-jermaine-2923.html)

Dr. J. Naismith 08-11-2008 04:01 PM

The Five Biggest IF's in the East - Re: Jermaine
 
What if Jermaine fails miserably here in Toronto? What next? :confused2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoopsworld
IF the trade to Toronto was all Jermaine O'Neal needed to turn his career back around…

After establishing himself as one of the best big men in the league Jermaine has seen his production decline noticeably since 2004-2005. Injuries have plagued him as of late, but the thought of him playing alongside Chris Bosh has Raptor fans very optimistic. In Toronto O'Neal will not be expected to carry the load like he was in Indiana. Ideally Jermaine would take a backseat to Bosh offensively, instead focusing on the defensive side of the court where his help is needed the most. If O'Neal dedicates himself he is definitely capable of having a Defensive Player of the Year-type season. The big question mark with Jermaine is whether or not he can stay healthy, but with a much better surrounding cast in Toronto and the added motivation of seeing his stock drop so much we could see a rejuvenated JO.

Source - Click here

'trane 08-11-2008 04:11 PM

then we have a massive expring contract in 2 years and we wallow in mediocrity like we would have if the trade never went down. no real risk, huge reward.

an if, but an easy if, imo.

Dr. J. Naismith 08-11-2008 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 49275)
then we have a massive expring contract in 2 years and we wallow in mediocrity like we would have if the trade never went down. no real risk, huge reward.

an if, but an easy if, imo.

But do you think Bosh can stand to wallow in mediocrity for another couple years 'trane? I don't think so. Bosh is in his prime and wants to make noise now. Not two years from now when we stand a good chance in losing him too. :face4:

Personally, if we don't make strides moving forward now, it increases the chances of Bosh looking elsewhere once his contract expires. JMO

'trane 08-11-2008 04:20 PM

well, we'll see won't we. if bosh bolts it's rebuilding time again, but we'll have 35 million in cap space... meh, not bad...

superstars not wanting to play for a mediocre team in canada will always be our problem. this is a legitimate chance, and it's not like we had any other possibilities that would have led to champioship contention that we just ignored.

all the risks that would have existed still exist, but we;ll be more flexible in 2 years, the team is excited and happy now, and we have a chance to make some waves.

there will always be a dark side, but the bright side is looking great and the long term hasn't changed one little bit. it may even be better.

Adequate Swag 08-11-2008 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. J. Naismith (Post 49276)
But do you think Bosh can stand to wallow in mediocrity for another couple years 'trane? I don't think so. Bosh is in his prime and wants to make noise now. Not two years from now when we stand a good chance in losing him too. :face4:

Personally, if we don't make strides moving forward now, it increases the chances of Bosh looking elsewhere once his contract expires. JMO

I've heard this argument as a criticism of the JO trade before and I just don't get it.

Without the trade, we remain mediocre. By trading TJ for any of the other packages on the table, we remain mediocre. By acquiring JO, we remain mediocre at worst, or become a contender at best.

Regardless of whether JO plays well or not, regardless of whether he gets injured or not, the JO trade was the only way to potentially make this team more than mediocre.

How were BC and Co possibly supposed to impress Bosh any more? How could they have better gone about "winning now" in order to keep Bosh around?

If Bosh wants to make noise now he should go ahead and make it. Nothing's stopping him. And if the JO deal isn't enough to keep him in Toronto two years from now then he quite possibly had no intentions of staying to begin with.

Dr. J. Naismith 08-11-2008 05:02 PM

I'm not saying right now Swag. I was referring to the possibility that O'Neal falls flat on his ass and isn't the player he's cracked up to be. This is purely hypothetical and something to discuss during the usual slow summer. :)

The MVP of West Hollywood 08-11-2008 05:09 PM

I kind of wish JO's contract ran out a different year than '010, oddly enough. It's starting to look like every team is stocking up their space for that year, and considering Toronto is probably one of the least desirable places for FAs, our capspace might not have as much use, we'll have 50 mil in capspace but might not be able to use it all.

But on the other hand, we might be able to resign Bosh, and then Tyson Chandler or Joe Johnson. Jose, Johnson, Bosh, or Jose, Bosh, Chandler looks great to me.

The truth is that our window to win a championship in the Bosh era might've closed when we picked Hoffa over Iggy or Deng or picked Bargnani over Roy. If our starting lineup was Jose, Parker, Iggy, Bosh, JO, with Moon and Kapono off the bench, or Jose, Roy, Moon, Bosh, JO, with Parker and Kapono off the bench, we'd obviously be feeling a lot better about our chances to win right now. Or if we didn't get screwed by the rule change and ended up with Jose, Parker, Moon, Bosh, Oden, with Kapono off the bench and whoever we got for TJ. But whatever... it's all what ifs. Can't dwell on that.

'trane 08-11-2008 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adequate Swag (Post 49294)
I've heard this argument as a criticism of the JO trade before and I just don't get it.

Without the trade, we remain mediocre. By trading TJ for any of the other packages on the table, we remain mediocre. By acquiring JO, we remain mediocre at worst, or become a contender at best.

Regardless of whether JO plays well or not, regardless of whether he gets injured or not, the JO trade was the only way to potentially make this team more than mediocre.

How were BC and Co possibly supposed to impress Bosh any more? How could they have better gone about "winning now" in order to keep Bosh around?

If Bosh wants to make noise now he should go ahead and make it. Nothing's stopping him. And if the JO deal isn't enough to keep him in Toronto two years from now then he quite possibly had no intentions of staying to begin with.

precisely. ready to go now, ready to go later. one major injury away from being right where we were before the trade, one addition on the way to being much better. what do we really have to lose on this one? I just don't get what the criticism is...

The MVP of West Hollywood 08-11-2008 05:15 PM

Really, if Bargnani puts up 15+ppg this year and looks like a hot prospect again, we can easily trade him for a 20ppg player by next year and be genuine contenders.

Adequate Swag 08-11-2008 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. J. Naismith (Post 49296)
I'm not saying right now Swag. I was referring to the possibility that O'Neal falls flat on his ass and isn't the player he's cracked up to be. This is purely hypothetical and something to discuss during the usual slow summer. :)

Yeah I understand that.

Let's say he does flop...how is that + the huge cap space in 2010 any less appealing to Bosh than TJ Ford and Rasho?

Regardless of how Jermaine pans out, I can't see Bosh sitting down next summer and saying "Damn, I really wish we'd have kept TJ and Rasho"

Sure we take a small risk on JO's health, but even if he were to suffer a career ending injury tomorrow, the Raptors would still be a mediocre team with boatload of upcoming cap space.

When the reward of the positive outcome far outweighs the penalty of the negative outcome, how can there be that much risk involved? Especially considering for all we know at this point, the positive outcome is more likely.

And if Bosh can't recognize this as Raptors management making a direct effort to build around him, then he's an idiot, and he's welcome to leave us with 35 million to play with in a couple summers. I don't think that's the case though.

'trane 08-11-2008 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The MVP of West Hollywood (Post 49301)
Really, if Bargnani puts up 15+ppg this year and looks like a hot prospect again, we can easily trade him for a 20ppg player by next year and be genuine contenders.

not sure who or what you were responding to here? if it's me, i think we agree, no???

Apollo 08-11-2008 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 49275)
then we have a massive expring contract in 2 years and we wallow in mediocrity like we would have if the trade never went down. no real risk, huge reward.

an if, but an easy if, imo.

The team will be worse off if this is a disaster. The risk is there, its not making the playoffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The MVP of West Hollywood (Post 49301)
Really, if Bargnani puts up 15+ppg this year and looks like a hot prospect again, we can easily trade him for a 20ppg player by next year and be genuine contenders.

There was a Bargnani/RJ rumor floating around before the draft and then RJ gets moved to the Bucks for Yi and some peanuts. Bosh, O'Neal and Jefferson would have been an excellent trio led by Jose at the point.

'trane 08-11-2008 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo (Post 49329)
The team will be worse off if this is a disaster. The risk is there, its not making the playoffs.

with tj and rasho we had a near-blowout first round exit. not much of a difference or a risk if you ask me.

jeffb 08-11-2008 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 49275)
then we have a massive expring contract in 2 years and we wallow in mediocrity like we would have if the trade never went down. no real risk, huge reward.

an if, but an easy if, imo.

But if this deal didn't go down,another one would have.It may not have been as popular but probably would have had less risk and would have helped IMO.

It's simple,if JO works out and turns things around staying healthy in the process BC looks like a genius.And if he misses a tone of games and or doesn't play well,they'll either say he sucks or that it doesn't matter because of the contract expring in 2010.

The MVP of West Hollywood 08-11-2008 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 49304)
not sure who or what you were responding to here? if it's me, i think we agree, no???


Yeah, was just a follow-up response to the thread in general

Adequate Swag 08-12-2008 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 49333)
But if this deal didn't go down,another one would have.It may not have been as popular but probably would have had less risk and would have helped IMO.

It's simple,if JO works out and turns things around staying healthy in the process BC looks like a genius.And if he misses a tone of games and or doesn't play well,they'll either say he sucks or that it doesn't matter because of the contract expring in 2010.

The other big trade possibility was Boris Diaw.

I'll take the risk of Jermaine getting injured over the risk of Boris Diaw being completely useless any day of the week.

m5racer 08-12-2008 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 49332)
with tj and rasho we had a near-blowout first round exit. not much of a difference or a risk if you ask me.

Honestly i know know what any of you are thinking, Rasho Sucked dog balls big time. He was most hated Player on the team last year and the year before that and the year before that (becides dixion!) Rasho before he blew up last year sucked. he made shots once and a while, he was butter fingers like crazy (droping the ball all the time) and he is slow. Really Us paying him 10 million a year was a discrase and imbarasing. He was liek a 5 mill/year palyer max.

TJ on teh other hand was my favorate point guard until he got injured. I always backed him and thought he was boss. Then when he came back his game was diffrent. He wasent making shots, he had turnovers left and right. and when he tried to take over games we would more liekly then not end up loosing. Add the fact that he is tiny and if he hits his head again he is done, i think JO is little to no risk. Dont foget that jsut 3 seasons ago they were in the confrence finals which he led them there. ANd dont forget he is a 6 time allstar. And the main reason he started to suck 2 season ago was 80% his injury he was trying to paly threw + once the big brawl came out that was another factor. JO is healed and ready to go. Do you guys really think BC would take a huge risk if he wasent 110% healed and ready to go. Dam this guy took of half of last season to heal so he could play properly again

TJ + rasho was an amazing trade to get JO. Jsut think rasho defineatly had a lucky second half of a year (career high this late in his career after sucking for years) and TJ imo was very high risk and not even that good concidering he was a selfish greedy guy who wanted all the attention and couldnet stand the fact that calderon was wayyyy better then him.

Dr. J. Naismith 08-12-2008 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m5racer (Post 49454)
Honestly i know know what any of you are thinking, Rasho Sucked dog balls big time. He was most hated Player on the team last year and the year before that and the year before that (becides dixion!) Rasho before he blew up last year sucked. he made shots once and a while, he was butter fingers like crazy (droping the ball all the time) and he is slow. Really Us paying him 10 million a year was a discrase and imbarasing. He was liek a 5 mill/year palyer max.

What planet are you from? If anything Rasho was certainly one of the more liked players on the Raptors. Not sure what Raptors message board you came from that shared the sentiments that Rasho was hated, but please tell me so I can ignore that forum. :cwm34:

If anything, Rasho was our most consistant big man and played some of the best basketball of his career last year. When Bosh went out he was averaging close to 15 ppg and about 10 boards a game. Also, was hands down our best interior defender.

So personally, I don't think you watched a lick of basketballm last season my friend because if you did you'd know that Rasho was extremely effective and valuable to this team last season. I for one am very sad to see him go.

Rasho >>>> Bargnani.

Adequate Swag 08-12-2008 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. J. Naismith (Post 49455)

Rasho >>>> Bargnani.

Maybe during stretches of the second half of last season.

But you can't honestly believe that to be generally true.

Snooch 08-12-2008 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. J. Naismith (Post 49455)

Rasho >>>> Bargnani.

BOOOOOOOOO:frustrated:


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