The Five Biggest IF's in the East - Re: Jermaine - Page 2
Old 08-12-2008, 02:05 PM   #21 (permalink)
convinced that Raptors fans are only happy when they're unhappy.

Retired Administrator
 
Dr. J. Naismith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Almonte
Posts: 10,249
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adequate Swag View Post
But you can't honestly believe that to be generally true.
Right now, absolutely. 3 or 4 years from now maybe not. But based on last year I'd take Rasho anyday over Andrea. He was far more effective for us and played his role to a tee. If Rasho didn't block shots, he was altering them. He was the ONLY inside presence for this team and to say differently that Bargnani was just as effective is beyond laughable.
Dr. J. Naismith is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 02:19 PM   #22 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

RF Affiliate
 
Adequate Swag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 513
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. J. Naismith View Post
Right now, absolutely. 3 or 4 years from now maybe not. But based on last year I'd take Rasho anyday over Andrea. He was far more effective for us and played his role to a tee. If Rasho didn't block shots, he was altering them. He was the ONLY inside presence for this team and to say differently that Bargnani was just as effective is beyond laughable.
If you would honestly rather have Rasho Nesterovic on your team than Andrea Bargnani, I don't even know what to say.

Playing your role to a tee is great, but Rasho's role only expands so far. He could play the best basketball of his life and he'd still be no better than the worst starter on any team in the NBA.

He's not a major difference maker. Bargnani is.

I like Rasho as much as the next guy, but Bargnani is an emerging star, and we may never see Rasho play like he did last season again in his career.

Just because a guy has a good couple months out of a decidedly mediocre career shouldn't elevate his staus that much, just as a couple bad months from Bargs shouldn't lower his.

Theres a long list of reasons Andrea is a better basketball player and a better fit for this team than Rasho (starting with talent) and I can guarantee you every GM in the league would take Bargs given a choice between the two.

Now, 3 or 4 years from now, or 30 or 40 years from now...doesn't make a difference. Andrea is already a better player.
Adequate Swag is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 02:23 PM   #23 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,920
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Now, 3 or 4 years from now, or 30 or 40 years from now...doesn't make a difference. Andrea is already a better player.
Bargnani is not a better player than Rasho right now, not by a long shot. True, he has the talent and the tools to become a better player, but right now he ain't.
MikeToronto is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 02:29 PM   #24 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 814
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. J. Naismith View Post
What planet are you from? If anything Rasho was certainly one of the more liked players on the Raptors. Not sure what Raptors message board you came from that shared the sentiments that Rasho was hated, but please tell me so I can ignore that forum.

If anything, Rasho was our most consistant big man and played some of the best basketball of his career last year. When Bosh went out he was averaging close to 15 ppg and about 10 boards a game. Also, was hands down our best interior defender.

So personally, I don't think you watched a lick of basketballm last season my friend because if you did you'd know that Rasho was extremely effective and valuable to this team last season. I for one am very sad to see him go.

Rasho >>>> Bargnani.
+1.
rapsfan087 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 02:29 PM   #25 (permalink)
convinced that Raptors fans are only happy when they're unhappy.

Retired Administrator
 
Dr. J. Naismith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Almonte
Posts: 10,249
Representing:
Default

Wow ... As I said Swag, if I had my choice NOW Rasho is by far the more effective player on both ends of the floor. Bargnani continues to play the game like a deer caught in the headlights. If your comfortable with our so called centre lofting up three's at a remarkable pace and rarely playing in the post, then your idea of a centre is the opposite of mine. Albeit, I saw some improvements in his post defense last season, he continued to be a liability. On offense, if his shot wasn't falling then he had nothing else going for him, not to mention being out of position for second chances with offensive rebounds and such.

So anyways, my opinions are based on the now, not a couple years from now. The potential is there for Bargnani, but can it translate here in the NBA? I've yet to see.
Dr. J. Naismith is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 02:33 PM   #26 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 814
Representing:
Default

Seriously, Rasho and Bargs are apples and oranges: Rasho is a decent true center while Bargs is a 4. The day that Bargs knows the half of what Rasho knows about playing on the paint I will be very happy.
rapsfan087 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 03:22 PM   #27 (permalink)
is dead inside

you ain't bout that life
 
Gurk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 21,095
Representing:
Default

that is true Bargs is a totally different player from rasho
Gurk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 04:48 PM   #28 (permalink)
is.....

Tai-Pan
 
m5racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,896
Representing:
Default

hahah Rasho had a lucky second half of a season. Ya i will admit, he palyed a good SECOND HALF of a season on a team that played pretty shitty overall. Key being played a good solid 3 months of basketball.

Big woop. the rest of the time he was pretty shitty. You cant deny that he was clumbsy as hell. I remember always watching him and he would loose a pass every other time. Lets put into prespective how shitty he was.

07/08 Season

rasho: 7.8 ppg (up .8) 4.5rpg (down 1.0) $10,000,000.00 career FT 0.578 hahhaha

Moon: 8ppg 6rpg $711,517.00 (08/09) got less last year.

Andrea Bargnani 10.2ppg 3.7rpg $5,176,400,00 (o8/09) (he had a shitty year)

Please dont tell me Rasho was a good player or better then Bargs beucase in reality he was not. He was way overpaied and had very little effectavenes (except for the SECOND HALF of last year) he was complete shit. I have been waiting for this guy to leave the team the alst 2 years and i was verry happy that he left the team. He was dead weight

Last edited by m5racer; 08-12-2008 at 04:51 PM.
m5racer is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 04:51 PM   #29 (permalink)
convinced that Raptors fans are only happy when they're unhappy.

Retired Administrator
 
Dr. J. Naismith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Almonte
Posts: 10,249
Representing:
Default

And how was him being overpaid his fault? If you want to blame someone, blame the Spurs for giving him the contract he has. Rasho did what was expected and more in my opinion.

And please describe your definition of clumsy? I'm curious.
Dr. J. Naismith is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 05:58 PM   #30 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

RF Affiliate
 
Adequate Swag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 513
Representing:
Default

Bargs had a notably shitty year. Rasho had a career year. And Bargs numbers weren't even that much worse than Rasho's if at all.

I'm also a little confused as to why you keep bringing up Rasho's defense. It was passable...nothing more, nothing less. He is not an above average post defender for his position, and he sure as fuck can't defend anywhere outside the post. Furthermore, I would rather have Bargs in there defending the post anyway, because Rasho can't effectively guard anyone with even a hint of quickness. Watch the Orlando series. Bargs was more effective defensively than people gave him credit for, and was certainly more effective than Rasho, who saw his minutes decreased significantly because he couldn't defend Dwight.

Rasho is a marginally better one on one post defender than Bargs right now. Bargs is constantly improving in that regard, Rasho is not.

And stop talking as though Bargs is locked into the 5 spot. It's not that simple of a comparison. One of his primary assets is versatility, which I would hope you have all noticed is a much sought after attribute in the NBA right now. Bargs can defend any 4 or 5, and some 3's. Rasho can defend big, slow 5's...that's it.

And I'm not going to bore you by going through all the things Bargs does offensively that Rasho has never dreamed of, but I will say that Andrea Bargnani was born with more offensive ability than Rasho has ever had. Rasho could catch a pass down low and lay it up, and would occasionally grab a rebound and lay it back up. Every now and then he would hit a foul line set shot, although I'm curious to know his percentage on those short shots because he seemed to miss more than he made. He also set screens on offense. That's it. Literally.

We all know what Bargs is capable of, and he's shown it plenty.

Doc, you seem to be making a straight up comparison using only Rasho's skill set as the guideline. You say Andrea can't play in the low post, yet you coincidentally forget to mention Rasho cant do anything but play in the low post. You say Andrea was out of position on offense for offensive boards (although, again, he's versatile...it would be stupid to leave him camped in the paint) yet you conveniently omit the fact that 5 rebounds per game is pathetic for a 7 footer who never leaves the paint like Rasho.

You seem to be ignoring most of what makes Bargnani a special player, while focusing on the things that Rasho does "well". If you want to say Rasho is better than Bargnani because of his post play, then I could just as easily fire back by saying that Bargnani's perimeter game is better. Those are both poor arguments, because they are both skewed towards the player that plays that style of game.

If you want a big, slow, traditional centre who never leaves the paint and only shoots when it's wide open, then yeah...take Rasho. You could also take Joel Pryzbilla, or any other token space filler on every bench in the NBA. Sure, Rasho is a little more talented than most of them, but that's still what he is. But Bargs is so much more already than a player with Rasho's skill set could ever be.

When you take the whole package into account, Rasho's advantage in the post (which I still view as very minimal given that he can't do anything on offense) is more than offset by the fact that Bargnani does things every game that Rasho has never even considered doing.

Put it on the floor? Never. Create his own shot? Never. Create match up problems? Never. Shoot from outside 15 feet? Never. Draw a defender to help Bosh deal with doubles? Never.

Just because the guy plays his role well doesn't make him a great, or even a good player. Bargnani is a one of a kind talent, and he's just coming into his own. There are multiple Rashos in every draft. Take your pick.

Edit: Sorry...didnt realize it was this long
Adequate Swag is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 06:19 PM   #31 (permalink)
is dead inside

you ain't bout that life
 
Gurk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 21,095
Representing:
Default

care to sum up the whole thing i am to lazy to read it all
thanx
Gurk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 06:53 PM   #32 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

RF Affiliate
 
Adequate Swag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 513
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkang View Post
care to sum up the whole thing i am to lazy to read it all
thanx
Sure

In summary...Bargs > Rasho

You lose a lot just reading the summary though
Adequate Swag is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 07:25 PM   #33 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,764
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adequate Swag View Post
Sure

In summary...Bargs > Rasho

You lose a lot just reading the summary though
+1

Actually that was for the long post that I didn't want to quote due to the amount of space it would take up. But I loved the length all the same. If nothing else it made my stuff look succinct. Great points in there that made the read worthwhile as well Swag.

As much as I loved Rasho, it was more about how he surpassed expectations and played his role well. What he actually brought to the table was pretty limited. I thought Bargnani was more capable than Rasho defensively on quite a few occasions, and yep - his versatility makes him much more promising for most offensive sets. If he had just hit his shots, and shown consistent efforts on both ends, then I think there's little to doubt about where he stands next to Rasho.

A pretty big pair of "ifs", but certainly not the kinds of things in the realm of pure fantasy. I've seen him hit his shots before, and I think he has shown an increasing commitment to defense, which could actually be part of what has effected the success of his offensive game. Until he puts it all together though, the ugliness on one end or the other is understandably frustrating, while what Rasho provided in the midst of being labeled a stiff could only bring satisfaction.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 07:48 PM   #34 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,334
Representing:
Default

I think you're undervalueing rasho a bit - but there's no question that Bargnani has far more potential than Rasho, that's why he was the #1 pick. I think one aspect where Rasho has a HUGE advantage over Andreea is basketball IQ (that comes from experience, not innate). He understands the game very well and Andreea still makes lots of rookie mistakes. But all in all - there's really no comparison, after all, we got rasho for matt bonner for crying out loud ...
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 07:57 PM   #35 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,764
Representing:
Default

His basketball IQ was good, but that hardly helped him from disappearing whenever he had to play alongside Jose rather than TJ, to the point where lineups had to be changed. When it comes down to it, as a piece of the puzzle, he was limited. I agree that his experience was invaluable over the last two seasons, but now with JO's experience and superior talent, we should see some very different results from all kinds of people, and that's going to allow Bargnani to find his niche that much more.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 07:05 AM   #36 (permalink)
is dead inside

you ain't bout that life
 
Gurk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 21,095
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adequate Swag View Post
Sure

In summary...Bargs > Rasho

You lose a lot just reading the summary though
thanks man now i understand what that post meant
Gurk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 01:26 PM   #37 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,334
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by •LX• View Post
His basketball IQ was good, but that hardly helped him from disappearing whenever he had to play alongside Jose rather than TJ, to the point where lineups had to be changed. When it comes down to it, as a piece of the puzzle, he was limited. I agree that his experience was invaluable over the last two seasons, but now with JO's experience and superior talent, we should see some very different results from all kinds of people, and that's going to allow Bargnani to find his niche that much more.
don't get me wrong - I totally agree, rasho was dispensable even without JO. But I was saying that in a 1 vs 1 comparison with Bargnani, that's one big plus for rasho. If Andreea would have Rasho's experience, he would be a LOT better even at this stage in his development. He still makes a lot of silly mistakes that make him look badly (and probably shake his confidence too).
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 01:33 PM   #38 (permalink)
is back baby

Large and in charge
 
Snooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: All up in there
Posts: 8,160
Representing:
Default

^^ I think you can in part thank the Smitch for screwing with his confidence as well
Snooch is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 02:30 PM   #39 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Superjudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,593
Representing:
Default

He was hurt.

And sick for most the year.

He'll be fine.

As well, his one on one post defence was better than both Rasho's and Bosh's.

I like Bargnani.
Superjudge is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 02:47 PM   #40 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

RF Affiliate
 
Adequate Swag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 513
Representing:
Default

I just want to make it clear that I'm not hating on Rasho.

The guy greatly exceeded my expectations, and he remains a capable centre, something that is lacking in the league these days.

I just think it's a tremendous insult to Bargnani to suggest that a guy who is so limited is a better player.
Adequate Swag is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Biggest surprise so far? jeffb Toronto Raptors 42 01-21-2010 07:43 PM
Who will get the biggest extension (per year) moremilk Toronto Raptors 14 07-07-2009 09:11 AM
Lebron, the biggest loser Ball Don't Lie NBA Talk 53 06-01-2009 11:48 PM
I may be the biggest moron ever, but... Ugo Ferst Toronto Raptors 33 08-15-2008 01:54 PM
Raptors biggest downfall? Thug Toronto Raptors 2 03-15-2008 10:59 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24