FINAL: Toronto Raptors 99 • Chicago Bulls 77 - Page 23
Old 12-16-2013, 12:23 AM   #441 (permalink)
believin' in Masai.

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I'm one of those that would is stuck in 2 minds on things.
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:29 AM   #442 (permalink)
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I am not on the tank bandwagon. Never been, this team as is, cannot land a top 3 pick. We are not the worse team out there. Tanking can also be risky, let's say we trade DD, Amir, Lowry (who we will be gone regardless) and maybe even Ross. Then we try to tank hard but we get a 4th-6th pick. Then we draft player X and make also a few moves, just to realize that the player we drafted/ traded for are good for 2nd-3rd options but not all-starts to count. Would you guys be okay again with another rebuild and back to square 1? My point is that even a top 5 pick cannot guarantee the next LBJ, Wade, KD etc...
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:22 AM   #443 (permalink)
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Do agree with you tommy c we might not get a top 3 pick but if you can get into the top 5 it's pretty rare to go from 5th to sixth. Players like smart and exum will be in that draft position so tanking this will net you a good player if your a top 5 tanker

Problem is we don't look like top 5 tanker anymore
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:19 AM   #444 (permalink)
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This squad is as bad as Milwaukee's, if not worse. Just because we beat 3 crappy teams, doesn't mean we're a good team.
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:44 AM   #445 (permalink)
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Did I say that we were "better"?

What I DID say was that we won't be getting WORSE... to the point where we'll be looking at a top 3 pick. But hey... if Masai wants to prove me wrong he can probably just call PHX and deal DD and JV there for 2 or 3 of their picks and then deal Lowry and Amir somewhere else for some more. Go into the draft with 5 or 6 picks in the first round? Would that make everyone happy?
so moving gay was not designed to make us better, but was not a tanking move either. So what are you saying, that the move was designed to make us stay pat?

I get what you're saying - there is a slight chance that the gay move alone was just for cap clearing and not a tanking statement - but only if the dealing would stop there. However, attempting to deal lowry can't possibly be construed as anything but tanking (assuming the rumours are true which is almost certain given the amount and frequency).

I agree a top 3 finish is almost certainly out of reach. I'm not sure it's all that necessary. ESPN's Ford projected 7-8 all stars in this draft and a lot of very strong players. A top 5 pick would almost certainly net us an elite prospect this draft. If we can land a top 5 pick while retaining demar/ross/amir/jv, that would almost be an ideal scenario. Grind it out another year with that core and maybe get another top 10-12 pick, add the Denver pick the same draft and the max cap space in the summer of '15 and you have the ingredients of a championship contender, if masai can properly execute.

If we need to trade vasquez/patterson/nowak for that to happen, so be it - those players are easily acquirable in free agency/late draft.
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Old 12-16-2013, 12:49 PM   #446 (permalink)
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Do agree with you tommy c we might not get a top 3 pick but if you can get into the top 5 it's pretty rare to go from 5th to sixth. Players like smart and exum will be in that draft position so tanking this will net you a good player if your a top 5 tanker

Problem is we don't look like top 5 tanker anymore
I agree. Top 5 will be oh so sweet, but unless we blow it up completely I don't see us going this route. DD is tired of losing, Amir, JV, Lowry (while still here) and TH are all warriors. Ross is making a progress and new guys from SAC might be serviceable. It's a tough spot so be. If we are not tanking now, and I mean like really tanking… we are not gonna get our next franchise-changer player via draft, unless Wiggins pull a Steve Francis. lol
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:05 PM   #447 (permalink)
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This squad is as bad as Milwaukee's, if not worse. Just because we beat 3 crappy teams, doesn't mean we're a good team.
Fuck outta here.

I see us as more of a Orlando type squad. (Young, up and coming)
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:05 PM   #448 (permalink)
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Fuck outta here.

I see us as more of a Orlando type squad. (Young, up and coming)
Except not as young, less potential and not so up and coming. Orlando still doesn't have a franchise player (unless Oladipo becomes that guy) so they're tanking, like we should be. The similarities end there.

Milwaukee has way better bigs than us and our wings are about even, while they have better depth too. Are we really that much better than them?
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Old 12-16-2013, 02:14 PM   #449 (permalink)
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Fuck outta here.

I see us as more of a Orlando type squad. (Young, up and coming)
I'd trade most of our team for gianni/henson - those two will be beasts. Save this thread and revisit 3 years from now ...
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:04 PM   #450 (permalink)
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Wow - beasts. How does that make a team?
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:40 PM   #451 (permalink)
believin' in Masai.

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This squad is as bad as Milwaukee's, if not worse. Just because we beat 3 crappy teams, doesn't mean we're a good team.
Worse than Milwaukee?
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:00 PM   #452 (permalink)
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I am not on the tank bandwagon. Never been, this team as is, cannot land a top 3 pick. We are not the worse team out there. Tanking can also be risky, let's say we trade DD, Amir, Lowry (who we will be gone regardless) and maybe even Ross. Then we try to tank hard but we get a 4th-6th pick. Then we draft player X and make also a few moves, just to realize that the player we drafted/ traded for are good for 2nd-3rd options but not all-starts to count. Would you guys be okay again with another rebuild and back to square 1? My point is that even a top 5 pick cannot guarantee the next LBJ, Wade, KD etc...
agree...even you got a Top 5 pick like LBJ can you really became Heat No 2?

looking Cleveland story which tell a lone all star can't garantee an Chaimpinship
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:09 PM   #453 (permalink)
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Worse than Milwaukee?
Look at their roster, now look at ours. They suffer from a coach arguably more incompetent than DC. We might be better, but not by much and moving Lowry makes it even closer.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:20 PM   #454 (permalink)
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This squad is as bad as Milwaukee's, if not worse. Just because we beat 3 crappy teams, doesn't mean we're a good team.
You're high.

Milwaukee's guards are shit... and their lone bright spot up front (and on the team in general) is Henson. Yes, they may get a boost when Sanders comes back but they're going no where. Knight is inconsistent as hell and Mayo is pulling a JR Smith these days and playing like ass. Giannis MIGHT be pretty good... we'll see.... but there's no way that their squad is better than Raps... potato coach or no.

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so moving gay was not designed to make us better, but was not a tanking move either. So what are you saying, that the move was designed to make us stay pat?

I get what you're saying - there is a slight chance that the gay move alone was just for cap clearing and not a tanking statement - but only if the dealing would stop there. However, attempting to deal lowry can't possibly be construed as anything but tanking (assuming the rumours are true which is almost certain given the amount and frequency).

I agree a top 3 finish is almost certainly out of reach. I'm not sure it's all that necessary. ESPN's Ford projected 7-8 all stars in this draft and a lot of very strong players. A top 5 pick would almost certainly net us an elite prospect this draft. If we can land a top 5 pick while retaining demar/ross/amir/jv, that would almost be an ideal scenario. Grind it out another year with that core and maybe get another top 10-12 pick, add the Denver pick the same draft and the max cap space in the summer of '15 and you have the ingredients of a championship contender, if masai can properly execute.

If we need to trade vasquez/patterson/nowak for that to happen, so be it - those players are easily acquirable in free agency/late draft.
Not necessarily. Lowry is in his final year and will likely be looking for a good payday next season (probably on another team). This franchise can't afford to let yet ANOTHER good player walk for nothing at season's end.... so he's trade bait.

I won't believe that Masai's tanking until he deals DD... a young player, still improving and still under contract for a few more seasons.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:33 PM   #455 (permalink)
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Just look at the 2013 draft. Who are the players which +- standout now?
2 Orlando Victor Oladipo
9 Utah Trey Burke
10 Portland CJ McCollum
11 Philadelphia Michael Carter-Williams
13 Boston Kelly Olynyk
15 Milwaukee Giannis Adetokoubo
22 Brooklyn Mason Plumlee
24 New York Tim Hardaway Jr
38 Milwaukee Nate Wolters
Sorry if I missed someone. But as you can see, getting a good prospect out of draft is not about how high or low is your pick, it is about how advanced and smart your scouting is.
Ok you would say, its only the 2013 draft.
other great picks out of top 10 in the past few years:
29 Chicago Marquis Teague
25 Memphis Tony Wroten
14 Milwaukee John Henson
9 Detroit Andre Drummond
60 Sacramento Isaiah Thomas
38 Houston Chandler Parsons
30 Chicago Jimmy Butler
22 Denver Kenneth Faried
11 Golden St. Klay Thompson
9 Charlotte Kemba Walker
40 Indiana Lance Stephenson
19 Boston Avery Bradley
18 Oklahoma Cty Eric Bledsoe
15 Milwaukee Larry Sanders
10 Indiana Paul George
40 Indiana Lance Stephenson
12 Memphis Xavier Henry
this is a small part or a very long list..
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:35 PM   #456 (permalink)
and that's the bottom line, cause JV said so!!!

This is how U(jiri) do it
 
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Plus minus does not equal player value.

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Old 12-16-2013, 06:36 PM   #457 (permalink)
and that's the bottom line, cause JV said so!!!

This is how U(jiri) do it
 
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Fact of the matter is that the lower you pick, the lower your chance of getting an elite player (which is what we need)
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:08 PM   #458 (permalink)
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You're high.

Toronto's wings are shit... and their lone bright spot up front (and on the team in general) is Amir. Yes, they may get a boost when JV starts playing better but they're going no where. Ross is inconsistent as hell. When Lowry is gone, their PG play will decline a lot. DeMar MIGHT be pretty good... we'll see.... but there's no way that their squad is better than Bucks... potato coach or no.
fixed.
Quote:
I won't believe that Masai's tanking until he deals DD... a young player, still improving and still under contract for a few more seasons.
You won't believe he's tanking until he deals a young, improving player? Too bad, it'll still happen, I guess you just won't believe it.

Last edited by KoolAid; 12-16-2013 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:38 PM   #459 (permalink)
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Name me one good player on MIL this season outside of Henson. I'll wait.

I can name several on the Raps.... Amir... DD... Lowry... JV (esp. now that he's getting the ball)...

Face it. The Bucks suck and will finish the season in the running for a top pick.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:48 PM   #460 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rompeprop View Post
Just look at the 2013 draft. Who are the players which +- standout now?
2 Orlando Victor Oladipo
9 Utah Trey Burke
10 Portland CJ McCollum
11 Philadelphia Michael Carter-Williams
13 Boston Kelly Olynyk
15 Milwaukee Giannis Adetokoubo
22 Brooklyn Mason Plumlee
24 New York Tim Hardaway Jr
38 Milwaukee Nate Wolters
Sorry if I missed someone. But as you can see, getting a good prospect out of draft is not about how high or low is your pick, it is about how advanced and smart your scouting is.
Ok you would say, its only the 2013 draft.
other great picks out of top 10 in the past few years:
29 Chicago Marquis Teague
25 Memphis Tony Wroten
14 Milwaukee John Henson
9 Detroit Andre Drummond
60 Sacramento Isaiah Thomas
38 Houston Chandler Parsons
30 Chicago Jimmy Butler
22 Denver Kenneth Faried
11 Golden St. Klay Thompson
9 Charlotte Kemba Walker
40 Indiana Lance Stephenson
19 Boston Avery Bradley
18 Oklahoma Cty Eric Bledsoe
15 Milwaukee Larry Sanders
10 Indiana Paul George
40 Indiana Lance Stephenson
12 Memphis Xavier Henry
this is a small part or a very long list..
lol, Rajon Rondo 21 springs to mind..
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