FINAL: Toronto Raptors 116 Detroit Pistons 107 - Page 17
Old 04-13-2014, 10:14 PM   #321 (permalink)
the gat'll killya quicker, when I'm drunk off the liquor

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,892
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
think chandler missing a large chunk of those games with Bargnani in was far more important ...
maybe, I'd expect you to say that. You were the most resistent to the claim that we'd improve simply by subtracting Bargnani. I remember us discussing the "Ewing effect", and you wouldn't believe it exists or applies to these types of situations.

Yeah, yeah, there are other variables in terms of roster changes or injuries for both teams.....but the Raptors went from the lotto to a division title when Bargnani was gone, while the Knicks went to shit and fell from a division title winner to a non-playoff team.


Interesting how things worked out. At the very least, Bargnani is a curse no team should want around fucking with Karma and morale.
Bill Haverchuck is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2014, 10:20 PM   #322 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,758
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
The Knicks improve to 20-18 without Bargnani.....just sayin'....completely different team when he is missing versus when Woodson had to play him.
What. Because nobody else was going to take a shot with 20 seconds left and up by 2?

I think the Pistons are pretty different without Josh as well. I always thought of him and Andrea in similar terms.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2014, 10:28 PM   #323 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,334
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
maybe, I'd expect you to say that. You were the most resistent to the claim that we'd improve simply by subtracting Bargnani. I remember us discussing the "Ewing effect", and you wouldn't believe it exists or applies to these types of situations.
we didn't exactly improve the first 18 games without Bargnani now, did we?
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2014, 10:29 PM   #324 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,334
Representing:
Default

of course, the clippers also had a better record without paul this season, hopefully they'll realize how badly cp3 is holding griffin back and trade his ass off
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2014, 10:47 PM   #325 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,758
Representing:
Default

How do you manage to miss the obvious constant? With Andrea we almost always sucked. As did NY. With Chris Paul, the Clippers never sucked. The constant lies with Bargnani and sucking.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2014, 10:51 PM   #326 (permalink)
probably lurking

burundi in the house
 
lankganglia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,016
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
well, unless of course we lose tomorrow to milwaukee........in which case we would deserve to end up 4th place.
fan night, at home, against the worst team in the nba....should become BKs d-league affiliate if we lose
lankganglia is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2014, 10:59 PM   #327 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,493
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
we didn't exactly improve the first 18 games without Bargnani now, did we?
Go back and look at who we played. Yes we did.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 12:01 AM   #328 (permalink)
the gat'll killya quicker, when I'm drunk off the liquor

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,892
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
Go back and look at who we played. Yes we did.
yeah, at the time, we didn't realize that the road loss to Phoenix was acceptable, because nobody knew how good the Suns are this year. Also, the huge loss to Golden State on the road, despite being up 25+ and playing them well. Tougher sched then we realized pre-Rudy trade. The team as constructed back then was not total shit.

The truth of the matter is, if Rudy had stayed, and got his shit together a bit, we're probably still a playoff team and win 40 games with that old roster. Just much, much more boring to watch.
Bill Haverchuck is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 12:09 AM   #329 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,493
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
yeah, at the time, we didn't realize that the road loss to Phoenix was acceptable, because nobody knew how good the Suns are this year. Also, the huge loss to Golden State on the road, despite being up 25+ and playing them well. Tougher sched then we realized pre-Rudy trade. The team as constructed back then was not total shit.

The truth of the matter is, if Rudy had stayed, and got his shit together a bit, we're probably still a playoff team and win 40 games with that old roster. Just much, much more boring to watch.
Especially if Gay played like he did after, shooting 50%. Much happier he's gone still but I get you.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 12:34 AM   #330 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,334
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
How do you manage to miss the obvious constant? With Andrea we almost always sucked. As did NY. With Chris Paul, the Clippers never sucked. The constant lies with Bargnani and sucking.
yeah, well my points were that 1. we sucked just as much AFTER we got rid of Bargnani and 2. just because a team gets better when a player goes down, doesn't make that player bad, as was the case with the clippers, chicago and OKC this year. I thought it pretty obvious that I wasn't comparing Bargnani to cp3, but anyway ...
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 12:37 AM   #331 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,334
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
Go back and look at who we played. Yes we did.
go back and see who we played last season in the games Bargnani was healthy, that schedule was even tougher.
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 01:05 AM   #332 (permalink)
stripes

Senior Member
 
just4_raps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,760
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
yeah, at the time, we didn't realize that the road loss to Phoenix was acceptable, because nobody knew how good the Suns are this year. Also, the huge loss to Golden State on the road, despite being up 25+ and playing them well. Tougher sched then we realized pre-Rudy trade. The team as constructed back then was not total shit.

The truth of the matter is, if Rudy had stayed, and got his shit together a bit, we're probably still a playoff team and win 40 games with that old roster. Just much, much more boring to watch.
+1 THIS
just4_raps is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 02:23 AM   #333 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,360
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
we didn't exactly improve the first 18 games without Bargnani now, did we?
This team improved because of 3 things...

a) attention to defense

b) ball movement

c) toughness


Any coincidence that Bargs was often lacking in all 3 of these areas?
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 04:46 AM   #334 (permalink)
elT
brainfarting keyboard eater

Dwane Casey kicks ass!
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 562
Representing:
Default

Somebody making a case for Bargnani? Seriously? After everything? That's just pure substance less trolling bullshit or at the very best, trying to be different just to be different.
elT is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 07:37 AM   #335 (permalink)
doesn't care where LeBron plays. Or Melo.

OY!!
 
niggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Loch Ness
Posts: 2,746
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
yeah, at the time, we didn't realize that the road loss to Phoenix was acceptable, because nobody knew how good the Suns are this year. Also, the huge loss to Golden State on the road, despite being up 25+ and playing them well. Tougher sched then we realized pre-Rudy trade. The team as constructed back then was not total shit.

The truth of the matter is, if Rudy had stayed, and got his shit together a bit, we're probably still a playoff team and win 40 games with that old roster. Just much, much more boring to watch.
Wouldn't have happened. Our bench would have been godawful without the SAC players, TRoss wouldn't have got the court time, JV might not have developed the same and DeRozan likely wouldn't have had the same season with the usage that Gay would have taken. Or Lowry. We could have been the Knicks--maybe.
niggles is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 08:10 AM   #336 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 6,396
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by niggles View Post
Wouldn't have happened. Our bench would have been godawful without the SAC players, TRoss wouldn't have got the court time, JV might not have developed the same and DeRozan likely wouldn't have had the same season with the usage that Gay would have taken. Or Lowry. We could have been the Knicks--maybe.
agree ...
Carlito is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 09:15 AM   #337 (permalink)
A True Diamond In The Rough

Senior Member
 
The Diamond Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Newfoundland
Posts: 2,669
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by niggles View Post
Wouldn't have happened. Our bench would have been godawful without the SAC players, TRoss wouldn't have got the court time, JV might not have developed the same and DeRozan likely wouldn't have had the same season with the usage that Gay would have taken. Or Lowry. We could have been the Knicks--maybe.
I have to agree with this point. Bill you got to remember our roster before the Rudy Gay trade was:

Lowry/Stone/Buycks
DD/Ross/Fields
Gay/Novak/Daye
Amir/TH/Acy
JV/Gray

You can't honestly tell me we would have finished with 40 wins even if Gay pulled his shit together. Stone and Buycks would never have put up anywhere close of the points and assists that Vasquez has given us since arriving.

I would agree would could get by with Ross and Fields as our perimeter defenders instead of Ross and Salmons, but at the same time Ross would not be playing 30+ minutes a game and it's not like DD or Gay are solid defenders so I don't know how that would have worked out.

While TH is not bad, neither him or Acy could help spread the floor like Patterson off the bench. The majority of time the key would be blocked off by our bigs, thus not allowing DD/Gay/Lowry to drive, which in turn would force us to be more of a jump shooting team. (Yes I know we are still somewhat of a jump shooting team, but you have to admit since the trade the paint has opened up a lot more for slashing/driving to the hoop.)

Gray/Acy/TH combined would not have given us the stats of Patterson and Hayes, so I just don't see us winning a least 40 games with our previous roster.

We probably would have been fighting for the 8th seed with between 32-34 wins right now because the Eastern Conference is so bad, but we wouldn't have achieved 40 wins in my opinion.
The Diamond Scorpion is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 09:47 AM   #338 (permalink)
sticking to his guns... is stuck to his guns...

Senior Member

 
DanH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 4,165
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
yeah, at the time, we didn't realize that the road loss to Phoenix was acceptable, because nobody knew how good the Suns are this year. Also, the huge loss to Golden State on the road, despite being up 25+ and playing them well. Tougher sched then we realized pre-Rudy trade. The team as constructed back then was not total shit.

The truth of the matter is, if Rudy had stayed, and got his shit together a bit, we're probably still a playoff team and win 40 games with that old roster. Just much, much more boring to watch.
I think a lot of people expected exactly that going into the season. Bargs gone, Gay being decent with the starters last year (though not great, and not in a sustainable fashion), I certainly figured them to be floating around .500.

But the key to most preseason predictions was that everyone was sure Ujiri wouldn't be satisfied with a bubble team. So some people thought the team would get blown up 25 or so games in if they weren't killing it. 18 games, it turns out. What was impossible to predict was the impact of said explosion of the team. No one knew if Ujiri would be able to move Gay, or for what, or if Lowry would be the one to go, being in a contract year, or DD while his value was "peaked" (there's a bad call, huh?).

And let's not exaggerate the difficulty of those first 18 games. They were tough, but the Raps weren't exactly tossed into a wood chipper. The Bucks turned out much worse than we thought at the time. ATL as well. The Grizz were terrible early in the year, as were the Bulls, as were the Nets. Looking at this schedule now, keeping in mind how some teams started the year with injuries, etc, what would you expect with hindsight?

Boston Celtics (W)
@ Atlanta Hawks (W/L)
@ Milwaukee Bucks (W)
Miami Heat (L)
@ Charlotte Bobcats (W/L)
@ Indiana Pacers (L)
Utah Jazz (W)
@ Houston Rockets (L)
@ Memphis Grizzlies (W)
Chicago Bulls (W)
Portland Trail Blazers (L)
@ Philadelphia 76ers (W)
Washington Wizards (W/L)
Brooklyn Nets (W)
Miami Heat (L)
Denver Nuggets (W)
@ Golden State Warriors (L)
@ Phoenix Suns (W/L)

For me, I'd expect this team to win at least 8 and up to 12 of the 18 games, for an estimated 10 wins. 10-8 versus 6-12 is pretty radically different. I doubt that the team as built would have been above .500 at the end of the season. Probably right around there and sitting in 7th or 8th.
DanH is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 10:15 AM   #339 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,758
Representing:
Default

I thought we could have won 40 games easy if they had a good defensive identity. Rudy or not. There was no reason to expect the chemistry to be so particularly bad with Rudy. And though the bench needed upgrading, it was not unreasonable to think Augustin could provide some punch and that Ross would look better this season, while coming off the bench. And I figured Ujuri would do his job as far as making moves were concerned - and to me that didn't mean trashing the team and tanking, but quite the opposite.

Even if Lowry had been moved, it would not have been about tanking necessarily. We know that Ujiri liked Greivis, and saw a chance to get more assets in return for a player that he couldn't be sure was going to stay. It could have meant a step backwards that was temporary, or they could have ridden out the season with more gradual improvement. But it looked clear that the players were not going to accept losing. Masai would have had to trash the team in order to tank correctly. And nothing, including what he was asking for in a Lowry deal, indicated a willingness for that.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 01:06 PM   #340 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,152
Representing:
Default

I can't see us winning 40 without the Gay trade, not even close. I think we would have been around the 30-32 win mark. The team was just depressingly bad, and things appeared that they were only going to get worse. At the time just before the trade, the team had no answers. Things weren't going to get better, regardless of the schedule.
bjjs is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24