FINAL: Toronto Raptors 112 • Detroit Pistons 91 - Page 21
Old 01-10-2014, 12:41 PM   #401 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

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Why is there this constant obsession about Andre Drummond amongst Raptor fans?

I'll go on record and say I was probably his biggest detractor on this board in his draft year. I just remember his college tapes and he was mediocre at best. He couldn't handle conference play in the Big East and once teams figured out how to limit him he just took himself out of the game. I wonder now if it was because he knew we was going pro.

Anyways, the biggest change between last season and this season is the number of minutes he's played, but if you look at his Per 36 they're the same (essentially) as last season.

But, where my concern is with Drummond and always will be, is that he's still a really, really dumb player. I thought JV looked lost on D, when I watch Drummond and Monroe and Smith together my eyes want to bleed. It's all about the block with them. It's not about positioning. It's about using athleticism instead of the body. They're horrendous. They might've gotten better, but the games I've watched I had to turn off.

And while Drummond might get better in the skill areas of the game, I still have some major question marks about his overall IQ on the defensive side (where he can make the biggest impact, more so than anything on the offensive end).
This, you can't teach intelligence.
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:53 PM   #402 (permalink)
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^quote from a Pistons fan:

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That's the problem when we have a collective starting 5 IQ under 500 points. We are the dumbest starting 5 in the NBA. It's a joke. OUR PISTONS ARE JUST DUMB AS A BOX OF ROCKS.
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:57 PM   #403 (permalink)
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Oh and his defense is overrated imo, he gets bunch a blocks, because AD goes for a flashy play, but defense is so much more than having few blocks. Being consistent is the key.

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Old 01-10-2014, 12:59 PM   #404 (permalink)
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Come on LX.... Drummond impacts the game for all 5 guys on both ends of the floor more than almost any young player in the game. His size and athleticism are freakish and a valued commodity in today's NBA. Ross does some nice things.... but is he rare? Not at all. Lots of guys who can shoot spot up 3s and defend.
Not true.

And ... name the guys in today's league (who are young, say 26 and below) who can shoot the spot 3 and defend. I'm willing to bet it's a shorter list than you think.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:14 PM   #405 (permalink)
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But, where my concern is with Drummond and always will be, is that he's still a really, really dumb player. I thought JV looked lost on D, when I watch Drummond and Monroe and Smith together my eyes want to bleed. It's all about the block with them. It's not about positioning. It's about using athleticism instead of the body. They're horrendous. They might've gotten better, but the games I've watched I had to turn off.

And while Drummond might get better in the skill areas of the game, I still have some major question marks about his overall IQ on the defensive side (where he can make the biggest impact, more so than anything on the offensive end).
He'll improve with experience, but the biggest reason he hasn't progressed defensively I think is coaching. Cheeks is an awful HC. If they didn't completely ruin any chance they had of building a contender last off season by signing Jennings and Smith, and signing Cheeks, then Drummonds progression would possibly be even better than what he's shown. He's still averaging a double double with 2 blocks and a steal, but you're right in that his defence is below average. But I really think with good coaching, he will turn into one of the best defensive players in the league. He's got all of the tools necessary to be a great pick and roll defender(incredibly quick feet, quick hands, ability to hedge or trap hard and quickly sprint back to his man), as well as post defender since he's so big and agile at the same time.

Dumars completely punted the chance he had of building a really good team around Monroe and Drummond, who actually worked really well together last year and had great chemistry. They bring in two toxic players and contracts and an idiot for a Head Coach just to try and make the playoffs, not even thinking about the ramifications of 2-3+ years from now.

Detroit isn't going to try and sign Lowry, because there isn't a team in the NBA who's going to want Jennings(just like in the off season), and teams aren't going to touch Smiths contract. They've bought themselves a disgusting treadmill on kijiji that doesn't work, and they won't be able to rid themselves of said treadmill for 2-3 years. Dumars blows.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:14 PM   #406 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummond so people stop whining

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^quote from a Pistons fan:
haaaahhh, probably not far off.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:18 PM   #407 (permalink)
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100% agree. I've been harsh on Andre since before being drafted (and was cooked for it here) but all I've seen from Drummond is a suped version of Reggie Evans - similar strengths and the same weaknesses.
What a load of shit. He's a 20 year old 6'11 athletic freak averaging a double double in his 2nd season. Suped version of Evans? Why? Because he gets a lot of rebounds, and you haven't seen enough of him besides games vs the Raptors to see that he has shown good defensive instincts, and potential to be one of the best defensive players in the NBA?

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The way T-Ross is playing has made me very content of the pick - I wasn't sure if his game would translate to the NBA but he certainly is proving many wrong.
Spoken like a true Raptors homer.

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Tip the hat to BC on that one.
You guys act like Drummond is done developing and Ross still has a huge window for improvement. It works both ways. Stop drinking the koolaid. I'll still take the 20 year old averaging a double double in his second season with the capability of turning into the best center in the NBA over a 3+D guy.

HE'S 20. HE ISN'T DONE DEVELOPING. Your post sucks.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:21 PM   #408 (permalink)
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He'll improve with experience, but the biggest reason he hasn't progressed defensively I think is coaching. Cheeks is an awful HC. If they didn't completely ruin any chance they had of building a contender last off season by signing Jennings and Smith, and signing Cheeks, then Drummonds progression would possibly be even better than what he's shown. He's still averaging a double double with 2 blocks and a steal, but you're right in that his defence is below average. But I really think with good coaching, he will turn into one of the best defensive players in the league. He's got all of the tools necessary to be a great pick and roll defender(incredibly quick feet, quick hands, ability to hedge or trap hard and quickly sprint back to his man), as well as post defender since he's so big and agile at the same time.

Dumars completely punted the chance he had of building a really good team around Monroe and Drummond, who actually worked really well together last year and had great chemistry. They bring in two toxic players and contracts and an idiot for a Head Coach just to try and make the playoffs, not even thinking about the ramifications of 2-3+ years from now.

Detroit isn't going to try and sign Lowry, because there isn't a team in the NBA who's going to want Jennings(just like in the off season), and teams aren't going to touch Smiths contract. They've bought themselves a disgusting treadmill on kijiji that doesn't work, and they won't be able to rid themselves of said treadmill for 2-3 years. Dumars blows.
Isn't he being helped by having Raashid Wallace around?
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:23 PM   #409 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummond so people stop whining

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Spoken like a true Raptors homer.
yeah, this fanbase is always about positivity and we always love our players. We neeeeeeeeeeeever think the grass is greener elsewhere. Ross is showing to be a good shooter and a good defender. He has shown enough imo that it's not worth whining about a player we could have had 18 months ago. It's done, move on. Me, i like what i see out of Ross even if he has bouts of inconsistency.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:25 PM   #410 (permalink)
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Isn't he being helped by having Raashid Wallace around?
You guys act like he hasn't improved this year. He has, his numbers aren't fluff, he's been a primary reason for a lot of their wins this season. Rasheed has helped him, especially with his footwork offensively, but the fact that he plays most of his minutes with 2 idiots who don't play hard more than half the time, and a coach who has no idea what he's doing may hurt his progression as a player in the next few seasons more than anything, assuming changes aren't made.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:30 PM   #411 (permalink)
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yeah, this fanbase is always about positivity and we always love our players. We neeeeeeeeeeeever think the grass is greener elsewhere. Ross is showing to be a good shooter and a good defender. He has shown enough imo that it's not worth whining about a player we could have had 18 months ago. It's done, move on. Me, i like what i see out of Ross even if he has bouts of inconsistency.
I've always supported Ross as a player, even when he struggled last year and most of the fan base wanted to trade him thinking he was a scrub who couldn't shoot consistently, when shooting was supposed to be his biggest strength. I think he can be more than a 3+D guy if he keeps working hard in the off season, and I like how we're using him currently as primarily a spot up guy in areas he shoots well in behind the arc. His improvement defensively has been fantastic.

I'm just saying to compare the two right now and not say that Drummond is light years more valuable, and a better player, is complete an utter non sense. It was still a mistake not to draft Drummond, despite TRoss' play.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:44 PM   #412 (permalink)
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yeah, this fanbase is always about positivity and we always love our players. We neeeeeeeeeeeever think the grass is greener elsewhere. Ross is showing to be a good shooter and a good defender. He has shown enough imo that it's not worth whining about a player we could have had 18 months ago. It's done, move on. Me, i like what i see out of Ross even if he has bouts of inconsistency.
If you say anything positive about a player your a homer apparently. And your post will suck.

And not one single post here said Ross was better today right?
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:47 PM   #413 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummond so people stop whining

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I've always supported Ross as a player, even when he struggled last year and most of the fan base wanted to trade him thinking he was a scrub who couldn't shoot consistently, when shooting was supposed to be his biggest strength. I think he can be more than a 3+D guy if he keeps working hard in the off season, and I like how we're using him currently as primarily a spot up guy in areas he shoots well in behind the arc. His improvement defensively has been fantastic.

I'm just saying to compare the two right now and not say that Drummond is light years more valuable, and a better player, is complete an utter non sense. It was still a mistake not to draft Drummond, despite TRoss' play.
Mehhh, a very athletic wing player that can shoot, dunk, play defense at 21yrs old is more valuable then you think imo. Not saying he's more valuable than AD but offensively Ross is far better (i know, different positions) and he's better at the defensive end imo as well. IMO AD appears to be a bird brain though, and he'll have to work his ass off to really really improve which apparently was always the knock on him coming out of college and why he dropped from a top 2 pick to the bottom of the lottery (work ethic). AD's size alone is spectacular but he better really work on his offensive game/FT shooting/overall defense if he's ever going to be a great player.
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Old 01-10-2014, 01:54 PM   #414 (permalink)
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Mehhh, a very athletic wing player that can shoot, dunk, play defense at 21yrs old is more valuable then you think imo. Not saying he's more valuable than AD but offensively Ross is far better (i know, different positions) and he's better at the defensive end imo as well. IMO AD appears to be a bird brain though, and he'll have to work his ass off to really really improve which apparently was always the knock on him coming out of college and why he dropped from a top 2 pick to the bottom of the lottery (work ethic). AD's size alone is spectacular but he better really work on his offensive game/FT shooting/overall defense if he's ever going to be a great player.
His offence isn't the problem. If he's scoring 12 PPG at 20 years old on 55+% from the field when he never has plays called for him, that's damn good. He isn't just scoring off of dunks either, he's getting offensive rebound put backs in the paint, and duck ins, much like Val, to where he can catch and finish with a hook shot, or a rolling layup at the rim. As he continues to improve, if he actually develops a few moves in the post and they go to him more to where he gets a few points off of skill moves as well, he could end up being an 18-20 PPG player if he's already scoring 12 off of broken plays, duck ins, rebounds, and drop off passes.

Again, he does have a long way to go on defence, but so do all 20 year old big men. A lot of defence comes down to coaching as I said previously, and I hope for Val and Drummonds sake, they end up with better coaches sooner rather than later to help them get to the next level to where they can eventually be as good as Hibbert defensively.

People forget how bad Hibbert was defensively his first few years. He wasn't seen as the sharpest knife in the drawer, and he was a fouling machine. Same with Amir. You can call Drummond a bird brain now, but we'll see what you have to say when he's 25 and he's one of the most imposing defensive players in the NBA. You just cant judge young big men's defensive prowess this early in their career, it's a skill that takes at least 4 years to really develop in terms of how to read all of the different coverages and how to react to them individually while the game is going 100 mph. Both him and Val have the tools to be great defensive big men, and I'm positive when we talk about them in 5 years from now, no one will be calling them anything close to a liability in any regard like they are referred to now in certain aspects.
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Old 01-10-2014, 02:50 PM   #415 (permalink)
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His offence isn't the problem. If he's scoring 12 PPG at 20 years old on 55+% from the field when he never has plays called for him, that's damn good. He isn't just scoring off of dunks either, he's getting offensive rebound put backs in the paint, and duck ins, much like Val, to where he can catch and finish with a hook shot, or a rolling layup at the rim. As he continues to improve, if he actually develops a few moves in the post and they go to him more to where he gets a few points off of skill moves as well, he could end up being an 18-20 PPG player if he's already scoring 12 off of broken plays, duck ins, rebounds, and drop off passes.

Again, he does have a long way to go on defence, but so do all 20 year old big men. A lot of defence comes down to coaching as I said previously, and I hope for Val and Drummonds sake, they end up with better coaches sooner rather than later to help them get to the next level to where they can eventually be as good as Hibbert defensively.

People forget how bad Hibbert was defensively his first few years. He wasn't seen as the sharpest knife in the drawer, and he was a fouling machine. Same with Amir. You can call Drummond a bird brain now, but we'll see what you have to say when he's 25 and he's one of the most imposing defensive players in the NBA. You just cant judge young big men's defensive prowess this early in their career, it's a skill that takes at least 4 years to really develop in terms of how to read all of the different coverages and how to react to them individually while the game is going 100 mph. Both him and Val have the tools to be great defensive big men, and I'm positive when we talk about them in 5 years from now, no one will be calling them anything close to a liability in any regard like they are referred to now in certain aspects.
This is getting silly. Drummond doesn't have to be bad for JV to be good and vice-versa. JV is a Raptor, Drummond is a Piston, and since they aren't going to be team-mates anytime soon, we just sit back and enjoy the battles between them for the next 10 years. Enjoy the game within the game.
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Old 01-10-2014, 03:10 PM   #416 (permalink)
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yeah, this fanbase is always about positivity and we always love our players. We neeeeeeeeeeeever think the grass is greener elsewhere. Ross is showing to be a good shooter and a good defender. He has shown enough imo that it's not worth whining about a player we could have had 18 months ago. It's done, move on. Me, i like what i see out of Ross even if he has bouts of inconsistency.
Agreed. Well said.
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Old 01-10-2014, 04:04 PM   #417 (permalink)
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Is the guy that constantly gives up on this team every game, whether they have a lead or not, before during and after, need to lecture us on a fanbase that gets negative too readily?

Ross was disappointing last season. He was a rook so yeah, it was ridiculous to give up on him based on that. And there were certainly enough encouraging signs, which maybe made it harder not to be a little disappointed.
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Old 01-10-2014, 06:46 PM   #418 (permalink)
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There are so many skilled, athletic 6'10+ guys nowadays who come into the NBA every year, that being an athletic freak doesn't really cut it. Drummond will be playing from behind his entire career - he'll be so used to losing by the time he develops the necessary skills that his biggest hurdle will be learning to win - which isn't easy.

Similar athletic freaks; Blake Griffin, Lebron, Dwight Howard, all showed an ability to have a positive impact in winning basketball games right from the star. Drummond appears to have little impact in that regard.

You look at Drummond's body language vs. JV, he thinks JV is the shit. He would bet money on JV in a game of one on one.


What potential does Drummond have over a player like McGee or Jordan?
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Old 01-10-2014, 06:51 PM   #419 (permalink)
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Nets are playing against the Heat tonight, so looks like their 4 game winning streak will turn into 2 game loosing one by tomorrow evening
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:59 PM   #420 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummond so people stop whining

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Nets are playing against the Heat tonight, so looks like their 4 game winning streak will turn into 2 game loosing one by tomorrow evening
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