FINAL: Toronto Raptors 112 • Detroit Pistons 91 - Page 19
Old 01-09-2014, 01:20 PM   #361 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,119
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
I know you've got the cookie monster in there so I know you're just being playful, but I'm going to comment anyway!

League wide, Drummond is certainly a better trade asset than Ross, if you compare them like that, but not necessarily the better piece if you're building a winning Raptors squad right now. JV and Amir is probably a better balanced frontcourt than JV and Drummond, although Drummond and JV would dominate particular teams easier. But if you're trying to have an entirely balanced lineup, you might be better off having the already pretty solid combo of Amir and JV in the frontcourt with the addition of Ross who is quickly becoming one of the better 3 and D players in the league.

I mean, Ross is shooting at a ridiculous clip right now. 46% from 3-range in 15 starts on 89 attempts. That's high volume while retaining elite, Ray Allen-esque efficiency. 89 FUCKING ATTEMPTS. The sample size argument is kinda lame at this point. The guy just flat out has a stroke (although poor shot selection fucked him up a lot last year). His shooting range really helps the wing pairing with Derozan. Their offensive skill sets complement each other well right now, and it should only get better.

I'm not sure we need to shed as many salty tears over Drummond anymore. And...yes...it means we might not need to curse the ghost of BC as much, either.
If Ross plays like he is now and improves his D and his shooting in the next 2 years (which are very good lately) he will probabaly make everyone forget Drummond. Small sample size though so its way too up in the air to be sure.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 01:22 PM   #362 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 76,069
Representing:
Default

Jennings 17-74 his last 5 games
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 01:32 PM   #363 (permalink)
is Fired Up!

Member
 
Fröz-d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Toronto
Posts: 462
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
Jennings 17-74 his last 5 games

Fröz-d is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 03:57 PM   #364 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,432
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
If Ross plays like he is now and improves his D and his shooting in the next 2 years (which are very good lately) he will probabaly make everyone forget Drummond. Small sample size though so its way too up in the air to be sure.
Ross will have become an all-star for that to happen... and even then it might not happen. I have to concede that Ross has been useful and is a better defender and shooter than I thought but guys like Drummond don't come along often. And if Ross can improve.... you bet your ass that Drummond can too. Let's not forget that he's had stretches this season where he's just DOMINATED teams.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:19 PM   #365 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,223
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Ross will have become an all-star for that to happen... and even then it might not happen. I have to concede that Ross has been useful and is a better defender and shooter than I thought but guys like Drummond don't come along often. And if Ross can improve.... you bet your ass that Drummond can too. Let's not forget that he's had stretches this season where he's just DOMINATED teams.
+1

I agree.

So we beat Detroit and somehow TR>Drummond or we don't mind TR here instead of Drummond?

Drummond has had a much better career thus far then TR, even JV for that matter. Drummond is also 2 years younger than TR. Yes, his offensive game will never be a strength and maybe he won't be an option on offense. Yes, he's a horrible free throw shooter. However, on the glass he's beastly. He's uber efficient in his role on offense. His defensive potential is also quite high.

Like TORap has said, it would take a lot for TR to be good enough for people to forget about Drummond.

And before people go crazy about me saying Drummond has had a better career thus far than JV -

Andre Drummond NBA & ABA Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

Jonas Valanciunas NBA & ABA Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

http://www.82games.com/1213/12DET16.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1213/12TOR17.HTM

Last edited by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!!; 01-09-2014 at 04:36 PM.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:29 PM   #366 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,723
Representing:
Default

The game tilts towards the backcourt and wings. Bigs like Valančiūnas and Amir that can stay on the floor together and work within an overall balance that doesn't take anything away from the ability to attack and defend via smalls is more important than a beast that can possibly dominate but is difficult to incorporate within overall schemes. Drummond could become a bad shooting irrelevancy when it comes to winning, whereas Ross has a chance to be a key part of a larger core. To my mind there are more situations where Ross can succeed with the way the game is played right now, and with the way he impacts the game for all five guys on both ends of the floor.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:32 PM   #367 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,723
Representing:
Default

Who has won more as a basketball player, JV or Drummond?
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:41 PM   #368 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,223
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
Who has won more as a basketball player, JV or Drummond?
That's not the only measure of who's a better player.

Important measure but not the most substantial or significant.

Raps were 1 place ahead of Detroit last season.

This season thus far, barring a Lowry trade and if the raps maintain their newfound play, the raps will finish 3-4th. Detroit could be 7th to 10th.

However if we are going to get situational/hypothetical JV wouldn't fare that well in Detroit.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:42 PM   #369 (permalink)
the gat'll killya quicker, when I'm drunk off the liquor

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,243
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
+1

I agree.

So we beat Detroit and somehow TR>Drummond or we don't mind TR here instead of Drummond?

Drummond has had a much better career thus far then TR, even JV for that matter. Drummond is also 2 years younger than TR. Yes, his offensive game will never be a strength and maybe he won't be an option on offense. Yes, he's a horrible free throw shooter. However, on the glass he's beastly. He's uber efficient in his role on offense. His defensive potential is also quite high.

Like TORap has said, it would take a lot for TR to be good enough for people to forget about Drummond.

And before people go crazy about me saying Drummond has had a better career thus far than JV -

Andre Drummond NBA & ABA Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

Jonas Valanciunas NBA & ABA Stats | Basketball-Reference.com
As an individual, Drummond is absolutely without a doubt a better trade assest than Ross. The point is, you're building a team. If you're going to keep one of them, I like a future frontcourt pairing of JV and Amir, if it means we have 3 quality starters at the other 3 positions, like I think we have now.

Anyway, only time will tell if the tears need to continue to be shed. I'm putting my tissue away for now.
Bill Haverchuck is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:43 PM   #370 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,223
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
The game tilts towards the backcourt and wings. Bigs like Valančiūnas and Amir that can stay on the floor together and work within an overall balance that doesn't take anything away from the ability to attack and defend via smalls is more important than a beast that can possibly dominate but is difficult to incorporate within overall schemes. Drummond could become a bad shooting irrelevancy when it comes to winning, whereas Ross has a chance to be a key part of a larger core. To my mind there are more situations where Ross can succeed with the way the game is played right now, and with the way he impacts the game for all five guys on both ends of the floor.
Could've had JV, Amir AND Drummond. A legitimate big trio.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:44 PM   #371 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,432
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
The game tilts towards the backcourt and wings. Bigs like Valančiūnas and Amir that can stay on the floor together and work within an overall balance that doesn't take anything away from the ability to attack and defend via smalls is more important than a beast that can possibly dominate but is difficult to incorporate within overall schemes. Drummond could become a bad shooting irrelevancy when it comes to winning, whereas Ross has a chance to be a key part of a larger core. To my mind there are more situations where Ross can succeed with the way the game is played right now, and with the way he impacts the game for all five guys on both ends of the floor.
Come on LX.... Drummond impacts the game for all 5 guys on both ends of the floor more than almost any young player in the game. His size and athleticism are freakish and a valued commodity in today's NBA. Ross does some nice things.... but is he rare? Not at all. Lots of guys who can shoot spot up 3s and defend.

If/when AD starts shooting over 50% from the FT line and gets the ball more (rather than watching J-Smooth chuck it) he'll be a monster night in and night out.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:46 PM   #372 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,223
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
As an individual, Drummond is absolutely without a doubt a better trade asset and better player than Ross. The point is, you're building a team. If you're going to keep one of them, I like a future frontcourt pairing of JV and Amir, if it means we have 3 quality starters at the other 3 positions, like I think we have now.

Anyway, only time will tell if the tears need to continue to be shed. I'm putting my tissue away for now.
No tears are being shed, just regret and what could've been. BC and DC screwing over the raps from behind and above.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:47 PM   #373 (permalink)
doesn't care where LeBron plays. Or Melo.

OY!!
 
niggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Loch Ness
Posts: 2,984
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Come on LX.... Drummond impacts the game for all 5 guys on both ends of the floor more than almost any young player in the game. His size and athleticism are freakish and a valued commodity in today's NBA. Ross does some nice things.... but is he rare? Not at all. Lots of guys who can shoot spot up 3s and defend.

If/when AD starts shooting over 50% from the FT line and gets the ball more (rather than watching J-Smooth chuck it) he'll be a monster night in and night out.
Wilt Chamberlain was a monster, night in and night out. You can counteract players that dominate.
niggles is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:51 PM   #374 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,223
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Come on LX.... Drummond impacts the game for all 5 guys on both ends of the floor more than almost any young player in the game. His size and athleticism are freakish and a valued commodity in today's NBA. Ross does some nice things.... but is he rare? Not at all. Lots of guys who can shoot spot up 3s and defend.

If/when AD starts shooting over 50% from the FT line and gets the ball more (rather than watching J-Smooth chuck it) he'll be a monster night in and night out.
+1

I agree yet again.

D+3 guys are great to have at SG and SF, however they are not something extraordinary.

Also, to the whole FT issue, players like Drummond can still be excellent players despite their lack of FT shooting ability. The other things those players do on the court far outweigh this flaw. Big Ben for example. Also, Drummond has the potential to be a 1st option on offense in the best case scenario. In a more worst case scenario maybe 3rd option on offense or a highly effective starter who doesn't need to score that much to be effective.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:52 PM   #375 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,432
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by niggles View Post
Wilt Chamberlain was a monster, night in and night out. You can counteract players that dominate.
With a great team? Absolutely. But if you had the chance to Wilt would you pass on him for a spot-up shooter who can play D?
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 04:59 PM   #376 (permalink)
doesn't care where LeBron plays. Or Melo.

OY!!
 
niggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Loch Ness
Posts: 2,984
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
With a great team? Absolutely. But if you had the chance to Wilt would you pass on him for a spot-up shooter who can play D?
That choice would depend on what players are on your roster at draft time.

Drummond may be a better single piece than Ross, but having JV just drafted in the previous draft, we needed a wing shooter that could defend.

Besides, AD and JV could not be on the court together. Neither one could play PF, so you're taking away from the team being stronger than the individual parts.
niggles is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 05:09 PM   #377 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,223
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by niggles View Post
That choice would depend on what players are on your roster at draft time.

Drummond may be a better single piece than Ross, but having JV just drafted in the previous draft, we needed a wing shooter that could defend.

Besides, AD and JV could not be on the court together. Neither one could play PF, so you're taking away from the team being stronger than the individual parts.
Team need over BPA. That always works out

It's highly debatable whether JV and AD could play at the same time or not.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 05:14 PM   #378 (permalink)
doesn't care where LeBron plays. Or Melo.

OY!!
 
niggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Loch Ness
Posts: 2,984
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
Team need over BPA. That always works out

It's highly debatable whether JV and AD could play at the same time or not.


Just your opinion. State your case.
niggles is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 05:32 PM   #379 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,723
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Come on LX.... Drummond impacts the game for all 5 guys on both ends of the floor more than almost any young player in the game. His size and athleticism are freakish and a valued commodity in today's NBA. Ross does some nice things.... but is he rare? Not at all. Lots of guys who can shoot spot up 3s and defend.

If/when AD starts shooting over 50% from the FT line and gets the ball more (rather than watching J-Smooth chuck it) he'll be a monster night in and night out.
Drummond as a player demands to have a particular kind of team built around him. You need 4 shooters that play their own game, and then him cleaning up the boards and scoring on dunks and putbacks. And you'll still need two-way players to guard the point of attack in order to make the proper use of his defensive abilities. Add another beast next to him and you risk becoming weak as hell on the perimeter, as the Pistons are now. A team that did nothing but run could integrate him into their style of play extremely well, but success with strictly running teams is pretty hard to muster.

I can't think of any type of team that could not use Ross as a key part of a well-integrated core as a whole. Whereas the freakish bigs constantly run into problems where the team plays one way to incorporate what that big can do, and another way where that big gets incorporated very little unless he can grab misses. We have bigs that can play and defend all over the floor within a team identity that remains viable and consistent no matter what. There's no being slavish to working with and around what the one big freak can do. Now if he turns into a Shaq that can find a Wade or Kobe, he's golden. I don't see that happening though, and note where Shaq needed that dominant threat at the point of attack that could defer to him all the same.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 05:34 PM   #380 (permalink)
is a free agent

Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,881
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
Could've had JV, Amir AND Drummond. A legitimate big trio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
Team need over BPA. That always works out

It's highly debatable whether JV and AD could play at the same time or not.
I agree.
There is no way we could put a line up of Drummond and JV, nonetheless with Amir

SF Amir
PF JV
C Drummond

Ridiculous to say the least.
Tommy C is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24