FINAL: Raptors 95 Bobcats 100 - Page 17
Old 01-21-2014, 05:18 PM   #321 (permalink)
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3 years
still doesn't make your response to his play any less ridiculous
Answer a few questions please
Does he became quicker on the court comparing to the last season?
Does he have any post moves except running hook and pump fake ?
Does his FT shooting became better since he joined the Raptors?
Does his mid range shooting became any better?
Is he doing the same mistakes from game to game?
Does that 3 second pause before he starts to move after he gets the ball near the paint area is just hilarious ?
Still find my post ridiculous, then I see no sence to continue our discussion.
Understand me correctly, I'm also a raptor fan, but I believe that critique is always better than indifference or blind fanatism.
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:19 PM   #322 (permalink)
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Answer a few questions please
Does he became quicker on the court comparing to the last season?
Does he have any post moves except running hook and pump fake ?
Does his FT shooting became better since he joined the Raptors?
Does his mid range shooting became any better?
Is he doing the same mistakes from game to game?
Does that 3 second pause before he starts to move after he gets the ball near the paint area is just hilarious ?
Still find my post ridiculous, then I see no sence to continue our discussion.
Understand me correctly, I'm also a raptor fan, but I believe that critique is always better than indifference or blind fanatism.
He's also terrible on defense, his man almost always scores on him when I'm watching games.
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:29 PM   #323 (permalink)
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That doesn't mean that he should settle for bad shots, just because he is first or second option and requires the most attention from the defense shouldn't be the green light to take lazy shots when he can go to the hole, especially with his ability to draw fouls.
I think i said as much. Fact is there is good to go with the bad, and it's not an unsolvable problem.

I don't exactly see a green light to take lazy shots. Nor do I see a lot of chances to drive to the rim lately. Defenses are stopping the ball on the dribble. He often makes pretty good decisions in taking the jumper. And he has made the pass quite a lot. It's just a matter of refining the offense some more. He was all of the offense early in yesterday's game, so if he ends up forcing his own shots a bit too much in those situations it isn't exactly a huge character flaw. Not at this point anyway.

Personally i could live without seeing JV taking wild running hook shots. We don't get to see him do that at the end of games, but it's just as detrimental if not more so. A good reliable inside game would help in that needed refinement of the offense. Lately it's just been panicky, shaky, and predictably wild in there. Dude needs to hit some damn jumpers instead of missing one and then melting down mentally. There would be nothing lazy about taking more of those jumpers. It would be a welcome sight to these eyes.
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:32 PM   #324 (permalink)
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He's also terrible on defense, his man almost always scores on him when I'm watching games.
Yes, he was a pretty soft defender even in the under 16 and 18 champs.. I don't think he has no potential, he could be a solid player if he will work hard every day .. But it looks like he needs someone to kick his ass, systematically.
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:51 PM   #325 (permalink)
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I think i said as much. Fact is there is good to go with the bad, and it's not an unsolvable problem.

I don't exactly see a green light to take lazy shots. Nor do I see a lot of chances to drive to the rim lately. Defenses are stopping the ball on the dribble. He often makes pretty good decisions in taking the jumper. And he has made the pass quite a lot. It's just a matter of refining the offense some more. He was all of the offense early in yesterday's game, so if he ends up forcing his own shots a bit too much in those situations it isn't exactly a huge character flaw. Not at this point anyway.

Personally i could live without seeing JV taking wild running hook shots. We don't get to see him do that at the end of games, but it's just as detrimental if not more so. A good reliable inside game would help in that needed refinement of the offense. Lately it's just been panicky, shaky, and predictably wild in there. Dude needs to hit some damn jumpers instead of missing one and then melting down mentally. There would be nothing lazy about taking more of those jumpers. It would be a welcome sight to these eyes.
I have nothing against DD taking open jump shot, but he has tendency loosing his cool in the clutch and just taking bonehead shots with plenty of time on the clock. I would much rather see Lowry with the ball in those situations because he makes better decisions.
Not sure why you brought up JV, but yea he is playing like poo lately. He really needs to work on his post game and post defense.
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:55 PM   #326 (permalink)
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Yes, he was a pretty soft defender even in the under 16 and 18 champs.. I don't think he has no potential, he could be a solid player if he will work hard every day .. But it looks like he needs someone to kick his ass, systematically.
Not sure about that.. He was always well known for his work ethic, and always working hard on his game. I saw few interviews of his teammates and Casey where they said that DD and JV are workaholics
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:52 PM   #327 (permalink)
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I have nothing against DD taking open jump shot, but he has tendency loosing his cool in the clutch and just taking bonehead shots with plenty of time on the clock. I would much rather see Lowry with the ball in those situations because he makes better decisions.
Not sure why you brought up JV, but yea he is playing like poo lately. He really needs to work on his post game and post defense.
I brought up Jonas because it seems that only one guy gets called out for taking a particular kind of shot. And because the effect of Jonas taking himself out of games mentally is the biggest noticeable factor in disappointing losses. I can live with it, because he is just a sophomore, but with both him and Amir subpar there isn't much room to come down hard on DeMar. They all need to round things out together on both ends. I'm sure they can. They sure aren't trying to win with DeMar isos as some here suggest. It's simply the current circumstances.

Lowry might make good decisions, but a lot of him looking good can be directly traced to DeMar and how teams play to stop him. He has taken plenty of extremely long range shots with tons of time on the shot clock. When they go in they are good decisions I guess. He drove to the basket at the end of the Lakers game, after the defense had committed to stopping the ball when DeMar started to drive it.
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Old 01-21-2014, 09:47 PM   #328 (permalink)
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So he shoots 15-19 feet jumpers in 37.7% from the field that are contested by his defender or even double team?
Not all of them are. And 37.7% is terrible.

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I thought you said he was decent using points per possession in those situations??? I thought I was the only one who still liked the tried and true stats like FG% vs. advanced stats.
Decent relative to the league average, which is awful. So he's slightly better than the truly terrible the league average player is at those highly inefficient shots. Yay DeMar!
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:02 PM   #329 (permalink)
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I brought up Jonas because it seems that only one guy gets called out for taking a particular kind of shot. And because the effect of Jonas taking himself out of games mentally is the biggest noticeable factor in disappointing losses. I can live with it, because he is just a sophomore, but with both him and Amir subpar there isn't much room to come down hard on DeMar. They all need to round things out together on both ends. I'm sure they can. They sure aren't trying to win with DeMar isos as some here suggest. It's simply the current circumstances.

Lowry might make good decisions, but a lot of him looking good can be directly traced to DeMar and how teams play to stop him. He has taken plenty of extremely long range shots with tons of time on the shot clock. When they go in they are good decisions I guess. He drove to the basket at the end of the Lakers game, after the defense had committed to stopping the ball when DeMar started to drive it.
Yeah, guys, why aren't you all calling out our 2nd year center on an affordable rookie scale contract for not scoring efficiently enough? Don't got making up nonsense no one has ever heard of like a "sophomore slump." Why focus so much attention on our starting shooting guard, highest paid player on the team, and the guy who takes all the shots at the end of close games and basically determines whether we win or lose (in those situations)? It's not like he's had 5 years in the league to figure anything out. Or like he's being marketed as an all-star and believes himself deserving of being one. Priorities guys!

Come on. It's been noted that JV is struggling. It's also been noted that Amir is basically useless out there. But those two have a track record as two of the most intense players on the team, regularly give it their all, and in Jonas' case have a long way to go developmentally before he's what he will be. DeMar has a long history of taking inefficient shots and contributing little in other areas of the game. You can't be serious with that comparison.

Lowry might take long pull up jumpers, he might even take them as often as DD does (spoiler alert, he doesn't) - but it does actually matter whether those shots go in. Is a corner three from Novak a better shot than a corner three from Hayes? Similarly, the pull-up, contested jumpers from DD are not the same animal as the pull-up jumpers from Lowry. One has a proven track record of being ridiculously efficient. The other has the opposite track record. And yet DD has taken literally 50% more pull up jumpers than Lowry this season.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:02 PM   #330 (permalink)
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Not all of them are. And 37.7% is terrible.



Decent relative to the league average, which is awful. So he's slightly better than the truly terrible the league average player is at those highly inefficient shots. Yay DeMar!
The league average isn't awful...it's the average.

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Old 01-21-2014, 11:04 PM   #331 (permalink)
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Yeah, guys, why aren't you all calling out our 2nd year center on an affordable rookie scale contract for not scoring efficiently enough? Don't got making up nonsense no one has ever heard of like a "sophomore slump." Why focus so much attention on our starting shooting guard, highest paid player on the team, and the guy who takes all the shots at the end of close games and basically determines whether we win or lose (in those situations)? It's not like he's had 5 years in the league to figure anything out. Or like he's being marketed as an all-star and believes himself deserving of being one. Priorities guys!

Come on. It's been noted that JV is struggling. It's also been noted that Amir is basically useless out there. But those two have a track record as two of the most intense players on the team, regularly give it their all, and in Jonas' case have a long way to go developmentally before he's what he will be. DeMar has a long history of taking inefficient shots and contributing little in other areas of the game. You can't be serious with that comparison.

Lowry might take long pull up jumpers, he might even take them as often as DD does (spoiler alert, he doesn't) - but it does actually matter whether those shots go in. Is a corner three from Novak a better shot than a corner three from Hayes? Similarly, the pull-up, contested jumpers from DD are not the same animal as the pull-up jumpers from Lowry. One has a proven track record of being ridiculously efficient. The other has the opposite track record. And yet DD has taken literally 50% more pull up jumpers than Lowry this season.
Wow. Sorry for bringing up the obvious truth that DeMar's success is linked to how the offense as a whole works or does not, or that the interior defense falling off a cliff is the biggest problem overall. Let's just make it about contracts, experience and character assassination.

Sorry, but Jonas seriously has to get his head screwed back on straight. Amir needs to return to form. Salmons needs to see the court. And DeMar needs to forget about the stupid All-Star game along with the rest of us. It's pretty meaningless and that shit takes care of itself. But he would not be the first or the last to be effected by that crap during the slog days of the NBA.

And Lowry has not always been ridiculous efficient at all, particularly in 4th quarters. He clearly is helped by not getting as contested thanks to defenses working to stop DeMar.

Now if you'd like to show me where this comparison is that you want to shit all over me for, i'd be interested in responding. And I'll apologize for making up nonsense when i see what that nonsense is exactly. Are you saying the success of this team does not require all parts of the offense to provide something, and that the defense inside can just go away? Is that really nonsensical to you? It's just about contracts, past performance and counting pull-up jumpers, while blatantly ignoring a player's impacting all other parts of the game? Okee dokie.

Charlotte jumped all over this team, in spite of DeMar scoring and defending and rebounding and passing, while the bigs wasted possessions, turned it over, shit their pants, and let Al Jefferson eat lunch under the rim. Letting Jefferson get anywhere he wanted was inexcusable. Then compounding that by just fumbling and bumbling on the offensive end, well it does kind of put the backcourt in a not very promising position for 48 minutes. That is not in any way a comparison, or nonsense. But be sure to count the pull up jumpers, because that's what it's all about.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:13 PM   #332 (permalink)
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Yeah, guys, why aren't you all calling out our 2nd year center on an affordable rookie scale contract for not scoring efficiently enough? Don't got making up nonsense no one has ever heard of like a "sophomore slump." Why focus so much attention on our starting shooting guard, highest paid player on the team, and the guy who takes all the shots at the end of close games and basically determines whether we win or lose (in those situations)? It's not like he's had 5 years in the league to figure anything out. Or like he's being marketed as an all-star and believes himself deserving of being one. Priorities guys!

Come on. It's been noted that JV is struggling. It's also been noted that Amir is basically useless out there. But those two have a track record as two of the most intense players on the team, regularly give it their all, and in Jonas' case have a long way to go developmentally before he's what he will be. DeMar has a long history of taking inefficient shots and contributing little in other areas of the game. You can't be serious with that comparison.

Lowry might take long pull up jumpers, he might even take them as often as DD does (spoiler alert, he doesn't) - but it does actually matter whether those shots go in. Is a corner three from Novak a better shot than a corner three from Hayes? Similarly, the pull-up, contested jumpers from DD are not the same animal as the pull-up jumpers from Lowry. One has a proven track record of being ridiculously efficient. The other has the opposite track record. And yet DD has taken literally 50% more pull up jumpers than Lowry this season.

Does a player's level of pay determine his level of responsibility on the court? They all get paid enough to be held responsible in my books.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:17 PM   #333 (permalink)
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And DeMar needs to forget about the stupid All-Star game along with the rest of us. It's pretty meaningless and that shit takes care of itself. But he would not be the first or the last to be effected by that crap during the slog days of the NBA.
I think he's definitely been thinking about something since the team started winning. He ends up short on so many gimmes - he's putting some sort of pressure on himself that is keeping him from playing his best.

And yet he's still contributing more and more in other ways. Huge clutch steal off of Jefferson at the end of the game.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:15 AM   #334 (permalink)
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just when i thought this fanbase couldn't get any more ridiculous
Missed one.

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Lowry could have sealed the comeback with one freethrow, and then we wouldn't be blaming anybody.
And danh u have lost ur shit if u think demars mid range shooting is his problem.

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Old 01-22-2014, 08:37 AM   #335 (permalink)
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The league average isn't awful...it's the average.
What's the league average percentage on a full-court heave? If a player takes a full-court heave on every possession, and hits them at league average rate, is he taking good shots or awful shots? Is his scoring efficiency good or awful?

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Wow. Sorry for bringing up the obvious truth that DeMar's success is linked to how the offense as a whole works or does not, or that the interior defense falling off a cliff is the biggest problem overall. Let's just make it about contracts, experience and character assassination.
Please show me the character assassination. Yes, the interior defense has been terrible. It has been noted, don't pretend like no one has said it. But also don't ignore that it is a new problem, from guys who are usually very solid. It's called a bad slump. DeMar's shot selection is a big problem - it may not be the main one right now, but it usually is, so I'm not going to forget about it just because others are struggling.

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Sorry, but Jonas seriously has to get his head screwed back on straight. Amir needs to return to form. Salmons needs to see the court. And DeMar needs to forget about the stupid All-Star game along with the rest of us. It's pretty meaningless and that shit takes care of itself. But he would not be the first or the last to be effected by that crap during the slog days of the NBA.
Don't apologize. It's entirely true. But DeMar needs to do more than forget about the all-star game and take a closer look at his game. For a guy who watches so much tape to continuously take the shots he does (and say he likes those shots and they're just not falling in post-games) shows a remarkable lack of awareness for a guy upon whom so much of this team's success hinges. I hold DeMar to higher standards than other players, precisely because he has some pretty rare abilities that could really impact the team if he stopped throwing away possessions.

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And Lowry has not always been ridiculous efficient at all, particularly in 4th quarters. He clearly is helped by not getting as contested thanks to defenses working to stop DeMar.
In Lowry's entire career, he has dropped below a TS% of .540 twice, with a .536 and .531 season. In DeMar's entire career, he has only ever had a TS% above .530 once - his rookie season.

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Now if you'd like to show me where this comparison is that you want to shit all over me for, i'd be interested in responding. And I'll apologize for making up nonsense when i see what that nonsense is exactly. Are you saying the success of this team does not require all parts of the offense to provide something, and that the defense inside can just go away? Is that really nonsensical to you? It's just about contracts, past performance and counting pull-up jumpers, while blatantly ignoring a player's impacting all other parts of the game? Okee dokie.
Ignoring DeMar's other impacts on the game? I'm hard on his offense precisely because he floats so much in other areas of the game. His rebounding is decidedly bad for a SG (49th among all PG's and SG's in REB%), his passing has improved drastically of late (18.1 AST%, way above his career average, and he's still only 14th among all shooting guards in assists per 48), and although there aren't any reliable defensive stats, his defense has been sub-par his entire career and his improvements there have been incremental at best.

And yes, there are other problems. No one is denying that. I take issue with comparing a) the interior defense problem, a recent thing that comes from two of the most reliable and intense players on the team with b) DeMar's shooting and offensive role, which is ongoing for the past several years, has shown no improvement (terrible shooting is still terrible, terrible shot selection is still terrible).

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Charlotte jumped all over this team, in spite of DeMar scoring and defending and rebounding and passing, while the bigs wasted possessions, turned it over, shit their pants, and let Al Jefferson eat lunch under the rim. Letting Jefferson get anywhere he wanted was inexcusable. Then compounding that by just fumbling and bumbling on the offensive end, well it does kind of put the backcourt in a not very promising position for 48 minutes. That is not in any way a comparison, or nonsense. But be sure to count the pull up jumpers, because that's what it's all about.
Yes, the bigs were terrible. I agree with that assessment. But again, I'm taking a long term view, and the problems that are consistently there bother me more than cold streaks and a few bad games from our historically effective big man core.

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Does a player's level of pay determine his level of responsibility on the court? They all get paid enough to be held responsible in my books.
Fair enough. Unfortunately, the reality is that a team can withstand having ineffective players on decent contracts, and can certainly take dealing with inexperience from a player on a rookie scale contract. It is much more difficult to build a team under the salary cap rules when you have players making large amounts of money and playing in ways that are not conducive to winning.

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And danh u have lost ur shit if u think demars mid range shooting is his problem.
What's his problem then? He has lots of problems, but the problem with his saving grace (his offense) is the midrange jumpers, and specifically his shot selection.
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:05 AM   #336 (permalink)
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Huh. This is timely. This was posted this morning.

DeRozan's Mid-Range Fetish | Raptors Republic: ESPN TrueHoop Network BlogRaptors Republic: ESPN TrueHoop Network Blog

It's a good read and addressed some of the "team offense" concerns noted here better I think than I did.
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:13 AM   #337 (permalink)
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What's the league average percentage on a full-court heave? If a player takes a full-court heave on every possession, and hits them at league average rate, is he taking good shots or awful shots? Is his scoring efficiency good or awful?


.
You're comparing the mid-range jumper to full court heaves?
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:24 AM   #338 (permalink)
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Demar's mid-range game was good enough to win 7of8 games and 9of11 games and have the Raptors in first place in the Atlantic. It was good enough for road wins against Dallas and OKC, and a big home win against Indiana.

It's just a really weird witch hunt to be on - trying so hard to prove that Demar is a bad player.

He hasn't realized his potential yet - I think he's getting close, but he has another big push in him. It will be exciting to see what his character shows in the playoffs. Maybe that's where he falls.

Trying to say he's bad at everything is just really whiny. He's in a lose - lose situation with some fans because when the team wins, it's the other guys, and when the team loses, it's Derozan.

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Old 01-22-2014, 09:33 AM   #339 (permalink)
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i am absolutely with DanH on this one. I don't necessarily think DeMar is a bad mid-range shooter, it's that his shot selection is horrible. I don't believe it's always his fault either, for a number of reasons - lack of a consistent post threat, lack of a fluid offense, etc. Generally though it is his fault, and he absolutely needs to do a better job of either a) digging down and getting to the basket more often (where he is extremely effective) or b) continuing to get open looks for his teammates. At the end of the day, if he's tired and he knows it in the 4th quarter, he needs to distribute the ball instead of taking inefficient shots.
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:39 AM   #340 (permalink)
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Demar's mid-range game was good enough to win 7of8 games and 9of11 games and have the Raptors in first place in the Atlantic. It was good enough for road wins against Dallas and OKC, and a big home win against Indiana.

It's just a really weird witch hunt to be on - trying so hard to prove that Demar is a bad player.

He hasn't realized his potential yet - I think he's getting close, but he has another big push in him. It will be exciting to see what his character shows in the playoffs. Maybe that's where he falls.

Trying to say he's bad at everything is just really whiny. He's in a lose - lose situation with some fans because when the team wins, it's the other guys, and when the team loses, it's Derozan.
It's not unfair and I would argue it's actually been a consistent criticism regardless of whether we're winning or losing. The guy's shot selection has always been terrible, and yeah it's magnified now that we've lost a couple crappy ones but his horrific shot selection in fourth quarters is absolutely a reason we've lost. Not the sole reason but one of the reasons.

And it's not juts DeRozan getting the criticism. I have seen a ton of posts ripping on Amir and JV. I have even seen Lithuanian posters ripping on JV, that's how you know it's bad. DeRozan is supposed to be one of our main guys, and he's certainly paid like one, so on those two facts alone he should be receiving the bulk of the criticism anyways.

look at LeBron, he's the only guy in the league who can put up a triple double in a game and be blamed for a loss. is it fair? no, it's just the way it is.
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