Feschuk weighs in on the Bargnani debate
Old 03-28-2011, 10:13 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Feschuk weighs in on the Bargnani debate

He says that there is talk about moving the big guy.

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There are voices within the team who’ll tell you that, with Davis establishing himself as an ascendant talent, the prudent way forward for the Raptors is to trade the Italian.
And then he puts together his own argument for doing so.

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Perhaps the best argument for unloading the Roman goes something like this. If Davis is soon to grab a full-time role as the starting power forward, it’s asking too much of him to do it alongside a soft-to-the-touch centre who shows zero interest in sharing the frontcourt workload on defence and on the glass. Chris Bosh enjoyed the role so much he moved to Miami.

Playing Davis alongside Bargnani, in other words, is essentially setting Davis up to fail; or, if your forecast is slightly more optimistic, leave as a free agent when he finally gets good.

It’s more complicated than that, of course. Exactly what Bargnani could fetch is anyone’s guess, and certainly it’ll be no grand ransom. But if you’re making the sales pitch, he does have definable attributes of hard-to-find height and shooting range. He’s not egregiously overpaid by NBA standards.

And there are learned basketball men who speculate that, placed on a contending team with veteran self-policing, he could be peer-pressured into actually giving a crap about something other than his jump shot.

The problem, if he stays, is that Bargnani perpetuates a culture in which he gobbles up minutes and shots he never really earns. (Witness Friday’s embarrassing loss in Oakland, when he occupied the floor for 27 minutes, jacked up 10 field-goal attempts and was the only player on either roster, save for point guard Jose Calderon, not to get a single rebound).

It’s difficult for a coach to preach accountability when the leading scorer is the chief slacker.

Would the Raptors miss Bargnani’s floor-spreading, bucket-filling production? For sure. Do they currently employ a true centre to man the post? No.

But pairing the under-sized Amir Johnson with Davis on the frontline could be a stopgap; it worked okay in Saturday’s 94-90 loss to the Clippers, at least, and it’s but one option for a team with salary-cap flexibility going forward. And Davis, who has vowed to hit the weight room in the offseason, is showing signs of having a heart that could compensate for his lack of heft.
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:20 AM   #2 (permalink)
is.....

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Obviously Bargs would need to be flipped for a C......too bad Gortat already got traded out of Orlando...he`s beasting
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:34 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Bargnani's new nickname: "Chief Slacker". I like.

"Itís difficult for a coach to preach accountability when the leading scorer is the chief slacker."

Derozan has followed into the dark side. It will be only time before Ed Davis and the high draft pick follow the same ways of the Chief Slacker. Send the Chief Slacker his pink slips.
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:41 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Wow, I actually agree with this wing nut.
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:47 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Bargnani or Triano.

All I need is one to go and I'll be excited.
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:13 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
Bargnani or Triano.

All I need is one to go and I'll be excited.
you're saying the negative effect Bargnani and triano have on this team is comparable? you crazy.

The paradigm shift if you got rid of Bargnani would be absolutely astounding.

boom shaka lacka yo here comes the chief slacka
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:18 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Pretty exciting if this could actually come true.
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:25 AM   #8 (permalink)
Unacceptable?! Did you see the pool? They flipped the bitch!

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The tide has turned on Bargnani.

I think you would be hard-pressed to find a lot of supporters for him. Out of those supporters I don't know if too many of them would suggest he goes forward as a centre.

Something needs to change.
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:29 AM   #9 (permalink)
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The paradigm shift if you got rid of Bargnani would be absolutely astounding.
If that's true, than Triano is the chief sucka.

BY playing Bargnani the most minutes on the team, you're either suggesting Triano isn't,

a) Aware of this

b) Feels obligated to play Bargnani for other peoples' interests or agendas other than what he feels is best for the team.


Either way, both demonstrates that he is a weak coach.
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:41 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
If that's true, than Triano is the chief sucka.

BY playing Bargnani the most minutes on the team, you're either suggesting Triano isn't,

a) Aware of this

b) Feels obligated to play Bargnani for other peoples' interests or agendas other than what he feels is best for the team.


Either way, both demonstrates that he is a weak coach.
i think it was pretty obvious from day 1 that triano was made coach because he's a puppet for colangelo, and will do things like play like Bargnani for 36-40 minutes a night despite his obvious shortcomings. having said that you can't dispute that this team is better with Bargnani on the floor. the ceiling is very low for a squad with Bargnani as a number one option, i don't dispute that, which is why Bargnani needs to go, for a paradigm shift as i mentioned earlier, but also to allow for the growth of ed davis and derozan as core pieces. but right now, this team is better when he plays.

i'm not a huge triano fan myself, but i do think that if you get rid of Bargnani before triano you're a lot further ahead than you'd be if it were the other way around.
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:43 AM   #11 (permalink)
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We're in a tough spot right now with respect to the rebuild. On the one hand you have Bargnani who has proven to be a 20+ point scorer but the fact that he's forward means he doesn't have the ball in his hands and is therefore only as good as the guy getting him the ball when it comes to late game heroics.

Then you have DD who plays the right position to be that guy...like what Kobe does for LA, Lebron and Wade do for Miami, Rose does for Chicago etc... he will have the ball in his hands and it's up to him to beat the other team and win some games. Is he going to be talented enough? Perhaps...but perhaps not.

So if you go out and draft/trade a ball dominating guard/wing then DD becomes a lot less effective if not redundant. If you trade him and keep Bargnani you don't get any value back yet until he signs his next deal so that doesn't make sense.

If you trade Barngani and DD doesn't become that guy we're offensively screwed.

This is a really tough spot to be in if you're BC.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:08 PM   #12 (permalink)
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i think it was pretty obvious from day 1 that triano was made coach because he's a puppet for colangelo, and will do things like play like Bargnani for 36-40 minutes a night despite his obvious shortcomings. having said that you can't dispute that this team is better with Bargnani on the floor. the ceiling is very low for a squad with Bargnani as a number one option, i don't dispute that, which is why Bargnani needs to go, for a paradigm shift as i mentioned earlier, but also to allow for the growth of ed davis and derozan as core pieces. but right now, this team is better when he plays.

i'm not a huge triano fan myself, but i do think that if you get rid of Bargnani before triano you're a lot further ahead than you'd be if it were the other way around.
I would dispute that this team would be better with Bargnani coming off the bench. They compete better without him they're just a bit unsure how to finish off games.


Trading Jalen Rose allowed the culture of this team to change because he was a leader, he was one of the best players, and he facilitated laziness. That was a paradigm shift.

Bargnani isn't a leader, his instinct has always been to watch, and despite that horrible instinct that Collangelo decided to waste the first pick on, I think Bargnani really wants to win. The team preaches effort and from what I see, the young guys give effort almost every night.

Bargnani has never been given the chance to sink or swim. You put him in that situation where nobody has his back but himself, who knows what might happen. He could turn into one hell of a bench player and a important piece of this team in the future. He's not the type of kid to talk smack about the coach behind his back and be a festering cancer spreading ill words on the end of the bench.

A coach who knows how to play his match-ups could get a lot out of Bargnani off the bench.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sick, Wicked and Nasty! View Post
We're in a tough spot right now with respect to the rebuild. On the one hand you have Bargnani who has proven to be a 20+ point scorer but the fact that he's forward means he doesn't have the ball in his hands and is therefore only as good as the guy getting him the ball when it comes to late game heroics.

Then you have DD who plays the right position to be that guy...like what Kobe does for LA, Lebron and Wade do for Miami, Rose does for Chicago etc... he will have the ball in his hands and it's up to him to beat the other team and win some games. Is he going to be talented enough? Perhaps...but perhaps not.

So if you go out and draft/trade a ball dominating guard/wing then DD becomes a lot less effective if not redundant. If you trade him and keep Bargnani you don't get any value back yet until he signs his next deal so that doesn't make sense.

If you trade Barngani and DD doesn't become that guy we're offensively screwed.

This is a really tough spot to be in if you're BC.
I think it's a little less tricky than all that. DeMar has shown that he can be an efficient scorer. And it's not a stretch to see him as being able to play a team game. A pg that is able to get his own offense could also mean that both guards could play a nice two-man game. Right now we have some pretty good examples of ball dominating guards in Barbosa, and at times Bayless, and it hasn't really hurt DeRozan. At times he has been able to develop some good chemistry with those guys. So getting a Kemba Walker would probably make a Barbosa a little bit redundant, but it would man a big upgrade in the long run, turn Jose and Bayless into tradable assets, and if Kemba can play defense, then the team takes a big step forward.

DD doesn't need to be the guy that poses a constant threat. He needs to improve his own defense and continue to take what defenses give him. On some nights he will be able to be the big threat. But this team can make the big leap with tighter D, and the kind of team-oriented offense that they have done a reasonable job of buying into at this point.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:10 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick, Wicked and Nasty! View Post
We're in a tough spot right now with respect to the rebuild. On the one hand you have Bargnani who has proven to be a 20+ point scorer but the fact that he's forward means he doesn't have the ball in his hands and is therefore only as good as the guy getting him the ball when it comes to late game heroics.

Then you have DD who plays the right position to be that guy...like what Kobe does for LA, Lebron and Wade do for Miami, Rose does for Chicago etc... he will have the ball in his hands and it's up to him to beat the other team and win some games. Is he going to be talented enough? Perhaps...but perhaps not.

So if you go out and draft/trade a ball dominating guard/wing then DD becomes a lot less effective if not redundant. If you trade him and keep Bargnani you don't get any value back yet until he signs his next deal so that doesn't make sense.

If you trade Barngani and DD doesn't become that guy we're offensively screwed.

This is a really tough spot to be in if you're BC.
I think putting all your hope on Derozan being a superstar, or him being redundant with another ball-dominant guard is unfair.

IMO he bring a lot intangibles to the basketball court and doesn't need the ball in his hands to make an impact.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:16 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I would dispute that this team would be better with Bargnani coming off the bench. They compete better without him they're just a bit unsure how to finish off games.


Trading Jalen Rose allowed the culture of this team to change because he was a leader, he was one of the best players, and he facilitated laziness. That was a paradigm shift.

Bargnani isn't a leader, his instinct has always been to watch, and despite that horrible instinct that Collangelo decided to waste the first pick on, I think Bargnani really wants to win. The team preaches effort and from what I see, the young guys give effort almost every night.

Bargnani has never been given the chance to sink or swim. You put him in that situation where nobody has his back but himself, who knows what might happen. He could turn into one hell of a bench player and a important piece of this team in the future. He's not the type of kid to talk smack about the coach behind his back and be a festering cancer spreading ill words on the end of the bench.

A coach who knows how to play his match-ups could get a lot out of Bargnani off the bench.
I'd like to think there is a lot of truth in that, but Bargnani has come off the bench, and he has expressed unhappiness about that, in his own passive/aggressive way. How many times has he credited any kind of improved play to getting more minutes? I just can't fathom him ever seeing improvement coming from more effort. And I can't fathom him feeling like he is in a sink or swim situation as long as Colangelo and Maurizio are here. He's just had his back covered too long.

I think he might need to face his ultimate test in a wholly different situation. And if he had the right situation, and accepted some kind of challenge to commit fully to a more suitable role, he could become something big. There are a lot of variables before he gets there though.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:22 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Bargs, Jose, Triano all have to go. Two players that can't spell defense and one that has no clue how to coach it.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:53 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Barg is staying unless we get a solid C and SF + picks in return
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Old 03-28-2011, 01:34 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Bargs, Jose, Triano all have to go. Two players that can't spell defense and one that has no clue how to coach it.
Yes it is time for this kind of move...

I am no longer afraid of them (Jose & AB) becoming better on another team
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Old 03-28-2011, 02:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
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yep.... another off-season of massive turnover.... that should put us on the right track.
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Old 03-28-2011, 02:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
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yep.... another off-season of massive turnover.... that should put us on the right track.
In the position we're in, other then our young core....changes will be made.
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