every raptor is a keeper...? - Page 2
Old 03-05-2012, 09:11 AM   #21 (permalink)
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15th man. who cares?
If you don't care, then by definition, you don't think he's a keeper. If he was a keeper, you would care if he wasn't kept. Just saying.

Oh, and same goes for Carter, while we're at it.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:19 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I think the reference to keepers can be made to refer to only non-scrubs...
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:46 AM   #23 (permalink)
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If you don't care, then by definition, you don't think he's a keeper. If he was a keeper, you would care if he wasn't kept. Just saying.

Oh, and same goes for Carter, while we're at it.
a few things:

-you're taking this remarkably seriously as a response to a guy just trying to say something positive about our team.

-you are not understanding what i meant by my title. by saying guys are 'keepers', i didn't mean to say we have to keep them - that would be absurd, and would mean we pretty much can't add anyone else. what i meant was that we could keep any of these guys and they could find a role on a competitive team. this is different than past seasons where we almost always had several players that i thought we had to get rid of at all costs.

-you dropped the qed. i'm just showing why i think butler sneaks through as a bit of a stretch to the points i started with. i didn't say we need to keep him, i said i like somethings about him and would be ok with him being the 15th man.

i don't think that's such a stretch at all.


as for carter, he's a good locker room guy, and not a terrible 3rd string pg. you need some veteran presence on the end of your bench. again, as a 14th-15th man, i'm not worried about him.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:37 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I don't even want to imagine the possibility of Butler being back next season. If at all we are to be a serious team by then, then he has zero business returning. I'd consider this season to be an audition of which he has terribly failed.

I don't know his contract details, but if it's anything past this season, then i will be hugely dissapointed.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:39 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
a few things:

-you're taking this remarkably seriously as a response to a guy just trying to say something positive about our team.

-you are not understanding what i meant by my title. by saying guys are 'keepers', i didn't mean to say we have to keep them - that would be absurd, and would mean we pretty much can't add anyone else. what i meant was that we could keep any of these guys and they could find a role on a competitive team. this is different than past seasons where we almost always had several players that i thought we had to get rid of at all costs.

-you dropped the qed. i'm just showing why i think butler sneaks through as a bit of a stretch to the points i started with. i didn't say we need to keep him, i said i like somethings about him and would be ok with him being the 15th man.

i don't think that's such a stretch at all.


as for carter, he's a good locker room guy, and not a terrible 3rd string pg. you need some veteran presence on the end of your bench. again, as a 14th-15th man, i'm not worried about him.
Well, to be fair, my QED was a joke until you seemed to actually think Butler is a keeper. I wouldn't want Butler on the team going forward. Period. We clearly disagree there.

Same goes for Carter - he has shown a lot less than I expected coming into this year - he is anything but a solid 3rd PG.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:39 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I don't even want to imagine the possibility of Butler being back next season. If at all we are to be a serious team by then, then he has zero business returning. I'd consider this season to be an audition of which he has terribly failed.

I don't know his contract details, but if it's anything past this season, then i will be hugely dissapointed.
Right now he is on a one year, minimum salary contract. I can't imagine him being re-signed next summer.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:57 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Right now the overall talent level on this squad is very low. Very few of these guys are keepers. If you wanna view them as guys that could play on a championship team, playing a role, then yeah, maybe a few more of them. But, for the most part, this is a team of scrubs.

Jose and bargs, and lately Demar is clawing his way back to respectability. After that, none are really starters. You learn to cheers for what ya got, even if it's shitty, but honestly, this team is a joke compared to the teams that are competing.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:06 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Right now the overall talent level on this squad is very low. Very few of these guys are keepers. If you wanna view them as guys that could play on a championship team, playing a role, then yeah, maybe a few more of them. But, for the most part, this is a team of scrubs.

Jose and bargs, and lately Demar is clawing his way back to respectability. After that, none are really starters. You learn to cheers for what ya got, even if it's shitty, but honestly, this team is a joke compared to the teams that are competing.
good thing i didn't make a thread about every raptor being a starter.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:06 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I agree with SJ, most of this team sucks ass and isn't worth keeping at all. Gotta love Casey for what he's done with them, but really... give the guy some real players and a real team. Bargs, Jose (although I'd rather trade him for value) DD (even he's iffy) JJ and possibly kleiza are keepers... The rest of em? The hell with em.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:08 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I agree with SJ, most of this team sucks ass and isn't worth keeping at all. Gotta love Casey for what he's done with them, but really... give the guy some real players and a real team. Bargs, Jose (although I'd rather trade him for value) DD (even he's iffy) JJ and possibly kleiza are keepers... The rest of em? The hell with em.
I'd add Amir to that as a hustle guy coming off the bench. Also Ed Davis is still young, its to early to give up on him. That makes 7 players on this team I consider "keepers", only 3 of which I would consider starters (DD, Bargs, Jose).
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:17 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Casey has done a good job with role definitions and that has made all the difference. It means a young guy like Ed can find the means of having a big impact on games. It means guys with some bad tendencies, like JJ and Barbosa, and Bayless, and Kleiza, can become players that stand out for their overall games on both ends often enough to make ou take notice. I suspect that BC tended to bring in players with some sort of promises to expand their games gain bigger roles for themselves on offense. The result was a mish mash of guys trying to do too much. Now we have guys working together more than in the past, and it likely increases their value. Hell, even guys like Jose and Andrea are becoming much more "respectable" by being forced out of their comfort zones for the good of the team. Proper roles and accountability can do wonders, and Casey is really good at managing those sorts of things.

Yes there is a need for an infusion of talent yet, but the right kind of talent that will make such principles even that much more effective. Talent on its own means little when considering aspirations of contending. Talent placed within the culture that is being created can mean that we start seeing some players arriving and becoming stars soon enough.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:18 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Well trane, if by some freak of good luck, toronto can land 4 really good starters and one game changer over the summer, than yes, there are some guys here now that would be great benchers....but really, not championship benchers.

Toronto is farther away from contending than people think.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:33 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I agree with SJ, most of this team sucks ass and isn't worth keeping at all. Gotta love Casey for what he's done with them, but really... give the guy some real players and a real team. Bargs, Jose (although I'd rather trade him for value) DD (even he's iffy) JJ and possibly kleiza are keepers... The rest of em? The hell with em.
Personally, I'd say Jose would be the last guy to qualify as a keeper, with Bargnani not far behind. Those guys can be converted to some of the talent that is wanted and needed. Jose has played a stretch where he has played full-court games and ignited the offense, but it's still outside of his natural tendencies. Lat night he fell back into pulling up on the fast break, and failing to turn the corner or penetrate with any real intentions. For the value that he might be able to bring back, it would be too easy to trade him and look for any other pg to fill his role, likely with better defense. Bargnani could bring back even more, while allowing team defense to become that much more stifling in his absence.

The team I see taking shape is one that gets stops and gets points off that defense as well as executing well as a unit on offense. Bargnani, Jose, Barbosa, and Bayless would be the easy targets as guys that could be moved to help get them get closer to that goal. Guys like JJ, Amir, and Kleiza could be guys that might need to be included in deals. Ed is not going anywhere at this point. He has a chance to become an impact guy. And Demar isn't going to bring that much back relative to what he still might provide.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:59 AM   #34 (permalink)
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My lists:

1. Guys who belong in the league:

Kleiza
Barbosa
DeRozan
Davis
Bayless
A. Johnson
J. Johnson
Gray (barely)
Magloire (barely)

2. Guys who would be starters for a competitive team:

Calderon
Bargnani

3. Guys who you'd build your team around:

...

So, overall, that's much better quality than we've had in recent years, and with the coaching change, accounts for a better on-court product, far less blowouts and much closer losses, even if the overall record is still quite bad.

However, supporting SJ's sentiments here, we do lack starting caliber talent. Assuming that JV ends up starting in the second part of the next season (assuming also that he plays like it and not just gets promoted like Gray did for the absence of a better player), and also assuming that the pick ends up as either 2 or 3 (Lamb, K-G or Barnes) and plays like a high-lottery pick should, we could have more positions manned by proper starters next season, but most likely it's going to take another year.

As for "trading the keepers" - sure, BC will always be looking at improvements. However, with the effects of the new CBA not fully understood even by the league executives yet, I fear that the movement of the players in trades is going to be somewhat timid both around this trade deadline (unless Orlando decides to trade Howard) and this summer. So, at this point, I'd expect pretty much the same cast back, plus JV and the pick.

P.S.: Forbes, Butler, Carter are absolutely inconsequential and so shouldn't warrant a discussion.

Last edited by MikeToronto; 03-05-2012 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:02 PM   #35 (permalink)
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You're a good fan Trane,

This squad has somehow touched you on an emotional level. It's impressive.

It almost makes me want to start paying more attention to Raptor's basketball again....Not really.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:06 PM   #36 (permalink)
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You're a good fan Trane,

This squad has somehow touched you on an emotional level. It's impressive.

It almost makes me want to start paying more attention to Raptor's basketball again....Not really.
Come back next year - they are going to be much better.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:09 PM   #37 (permalink)
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hahahaha...

I suggest people look at the actual contenders, look at their roster, look at how its constructed. Pay attention to how good even their scrubs are....
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:16 PM   #38 (permalink)
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What the depth chart next season should look like:

1. Bargnani
2. FA/trade? (SF?)
3. Derozan
4. Calderon (if he remains)
5. Valanciunas
6. JJ
7. Kleiza
8. Amir
9. Davis
10.-14. (FA/Trades)
15. Forbes

Basically 2 starting spots should be upgraded, placing two of our current starters on the bench which makes us a deeper team (JJ & Amir?). Maybe Barbosa is re-signed placing him in the 6 or 7th spot. And if we can get a top 6-7 pick, obviously he'd likely be somewhere in the top 10 as well.

Last edited by jeffb; 03-05-2012 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:22 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
hahahaha...

I suggest people look at the actual contenders, look at their roster, look at how its constructed. Pay attention to how good even their scrubs are....
...and take a look at how they operate from top to bottom, and are able to bring in so-so talent and make the most of their abilities through proper role definition, attention to detail as a team, and getting the best results possible (which makes it much easier to retain good players).

I think it's pretty clear that the point of this thread is to acknowledge some good first steps in the right direction and the promise that can be gleaned from that, not to start planning a parade route.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:25 PM   #40 (permalink)
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hahahaha...

I suggest people look at the actual contenders, look at their roster, look at how its constructed. Pay attention to how good even their scrubs are....
Well, SJ, here's where we disagree.

I believe that players like Johnsons, Kleiza, Davis, DeRozan or Barbosa would look absolutely fine coming off the bench for a contender. Even Bayless, when healthy and under control, if a serviceable backup PG.
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