ESPN Panel: Rudy Gay most overrated small forward - Page 3
Old 08-05-2013, 06:10 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Would be.......ok. Except that Granger has missed the last full season and is 30 while Gay is 26. And in 2011-12, Granger averaged 18ppg on 41FG%. Is that really better than Gay in his worst season? Gay is a better rebounder than Granger and certainly no worse defensively. If healthy, at best these two are comparable SF's. IMO based on age, recent injury issues (Granger just missed a full season) i'd take Gay over Granger.


Career numbers:

Granger: 18ppg/ 5.2rpg/ 2apg (43FG%, 38 3PT%)

Gay: 18ppg/ 5.8rpg/ 2apg (45FG%, 34 3PT%)
Oh well, I'm on my phone and didn't check stats but that looks like it was an off year for Granger, similar to what rudy's been going through for the past little while. Better example of healthy Granger is 2010-11: 20 PPG on 43% FG and 38%3pt. Neither are very efficient. And from what I know granger took some time to develop whereas rudy was scoring well in his rookie and sophomore years (more efficiently than now ) so I'd take the career #s with a grain of salt.

I agree though if we're talking in the future that Gay should be more valuable than 30 year old granger coming off a major injury.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:10 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Brilliant?


Hehee, strong word.......I guess you've spent time in the Indiana locker room?
What the dickens are you talking about? :P

I never played for Phoenix Suns, Dallas Mavericks, LA Lakers or the Canadian NT. But I feel there's enough infoto say that Nash is a brilliant locker room presence. If you disagree, you disagree, maybe Nash is secretly a major ass, who knows I guess.

And it's the same with Granger. He's great based on anything I've heard, seen, read. Ivy League smart, and a genuinely good person.

Last edited by woodchuck; 08-05-2013 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:12 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Oh well, I'm on my phone and didn't check stats but that looks like it was an off year for Granger, similar to what rudy's been going through for the past little while. Better example of healthy Granger is 2010-11: 20 PPG on 43% FG and 38%3pt. Neither are very efficient. And from what I know granger took some time to develop whereas rudy was scoring well in his rookie and sophomore years (more efficiently than now ) so I'd take the career #s with a grain of salt.

I agree though if we're talking in the future that Gay should be more valuable than 30 year old granger coming off a major injury.
+1


And just to compare, Gay in 2010-11:

20ppg/6.2rpg on 47FG% and 39 3PT%
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:13 PM   #44 (permalink)
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What the dickens are you talking about? :P I never played for Phoenix Suns, Dallas Mavericks, LA Lakers or the Canadian NT. But I feel there's enough infoto say that Nash is a brilliant locker room presence. If you disagree, you disagree, maybe Nash is secretly a major ass, who knows I guess.

And it's the same with Granger. He's great based on anything I've heard, seen, read. Ivy League smart, and a genuinely good person.
Hahhhhh, thought you were talking about Granger.......wtf, sorry.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:17 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I don't give a shit about stats.
The only thing that matters is that we started winning when Gay came in. End of story.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:21 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I don't give a shit about stats.
The only thing that matters is that we started winning when Gay came in. End of story.
Iif wins is all that matters surely you would want a player who would help you be a top 3 seed rather than a guy who will make you a .500 team. Fact is rudy's style of ball is not compatible with being a contending team.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:28 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Fact is rudy's style of ball is not compatible with being a contending team.
That remains to be seen.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:41 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Hahhhhh, thought you were talking about Granger.......wtf, sorry.
He was talking about Granger; he just used Nash to make the point about how you can draw conclusions without being in the lockeroom. Were you genuinely confused or being sarcastic?

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“Danny’s been like a big brother to me,” George says. “He’s really been a mentor to me. He’s been a big brother. Anything that I needed to learn or that I needed help with or getting adjusted to, Danny was there. So early on I felt like we had a brother relationship.”

There’s no doubting that the two men, in many NBA locker rooms, would be rivals. Rivals for playing time, for the spotlight, for the leadership role, for the glory, for the next big contract or the ego-driven need the Lakers keep exhibiting to simply feel like The Man. But the Pacers are different. It’s why Roy Hibbert said Wednesday he’d pay Lance Stephenson’s $35,000 fine for being a good teammate and having his back during the Wednesday shoving match that got Hibbert and Golden State’s David Lee suspended. It’s why Indiana’s defense is so focused and intense. It’s why the Pacers rotate so well, why they buy in, why George feels a genuine ease with every guy on the roster, why Granger seems so comfortable with the idea of turning over his role to the others.

These guys – led first and foremost by George and Granger – actually really like each other.

“I think the biggest deal about it is the assumptions since I was coming back that there’d be a competition between us, when it’s actually the opposite,” Granger says. “The way he can break defenses down, the way he can create, I can just stand, catch and shoot, drive – it makes my job easier. He’s coming in at such a young age – he’s 22 now – I’m going to be 30 in a month and a half.

“So I’m about to have a mid-life crisis,” Granger says. George laughs at him. “So I’m 30, you know, I have no problem – I’ve been in the league eight years – I have no problem passing the mantle to him, to leave the team to Roy and George.” Granger looks at George, right in the eye. “Those guys really, even David, those are the nucleus of this team. I’m getting older now, and the fact that we drafted Roy, then we drafted PG, I was drafted here, Lance Stephenson was drafted here, Tyler was drafted here. My whole team I watched get drafted. I’ve watched all of them grow. So I have no problem passing the mantle. At all.”

Link - Danny Granger and Paul Geroge very close on team

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 08-05-2013 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:48 PM   #49 (permalink)
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# of steals is a horrible way to judge defense. It's a factor. But you have Avery Bradley and prime Tayshaun Prince types who hardly ever gamble and play mindblowing defense without getting steals.
Agreed, I just think his defense is overrated. It's a factor worth mentioning, I do think he's a good defender, just not as good as everyone else thinks.

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Since when does creating your own shot and averaging 20 PPG make you a better player than someone else who has a better overall game?
I was talking about no.1 guy, it matters then.


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Originally Posted by Ball Don't Lie View Post
Iguodala is a better player than Gay because he does more things on the floor to consistently contribute to winning.
I disagree. He's only better at play making, and defense is marginally better. Scoring wise Gay is better, and as a no.1 and/or franchise player option Gay would do better than Iggy. BTW you keep mentioning as if Gay played for us as if we were not .500 with him. Doesn't winning team mean .500+?

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Deng may be as inefficient in a 1st option role as Gay was last year, but on a winning team, he fits like a glove because he plays his role beautifully as a 3rd option and very good defensive player.
Yup as a 3rd option he's better, but if we're literally saying "who's better" I'm not gunna do 'Gay as 1st option vs. Deng as third' How's that fair? As a first option Gay> Deng. It's me saying who's a better basketball player, period. And with the addition of Gay, we're .500, that's a winning team... but I get what you mean Bulls are nearly a contending team while we're 'playoff bound'.

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If you actually think that Gay is a better player than George at this point in time then you didn't watch George a lot last season.
Agreed, that's why I gave him 4th, and put Gay AFTER him. Did you want me to put him 3rd? I just said MAYBE it's too early, since we only had this season so far to evaluate.

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Gays problem is that his style doesn't coincide with a good team offence due to his propensity to need to isolate and dominate the ball, while not scoring at a high enough clip to help his team consistently win games. You're not going to be a winning team anyway with Rudy as your number 1 guy, so what's the point of your argument?
My point was he's a better player than them, except George and Pierce. Which he is. Sorry if I didn't say a third option was better than him, cause he isn't.
Asking questions like these are subjective, when I heard "Who's a better player" I'm going to put them in the same situation.


I evaluate their whole game in the same situation, you can't evaluate Bosh to Dirk and say 'Bosh played better in a 3rd option role vs what Dirk did' overall Dirk is better, so I'm going to say he's better. -That was an example, I'm not actually saying Gay= Dirk, just using option 1 vs option 3 example.-


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Originally Posted by KoolAid View Post
Sure, I guess Gay can avg 20ppg as a 1st option...but he doesn't.
Well per 36, 'blind' Gay Does avg that for us.

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Granger if healthy (like 2011-12) would be ahead of Rudy.You say Granger takes more 3s like its a bad thing. And you can't really say Rudy would get his team involved more than Granger because neither are great at that aspect of the game.
Like I said, between him and Gay it's debatable. I can't say he's CLEARLY better, but to me he is. And I layed out the reasons why. Shooting 5-7 threes a game is an issue on a winning team imo,unless you're Stephen Curry who shoots 45% - more than Granger's FG%- to me it shows that he doesn't get his team involved as much especially when they only average 2 apg. If he did have the same season as 2011-12 than George wouldn't be on the top 5 list imo AND it'd still be debatable between Granger and Gay. What he averaged per 36 is the same as gay this season with the Raptors with a lower FG%, RPG, APG, SPG. But since he's on a contention team, I can see why people would slide towards him rather than 'blind' Gay.

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imo Deng, George, and Iggy play better defence than Rudy.
I wouldn't say it'd be by SO much, that it'd equals that they're better than Rudy (And I think George is better atm...) And I think if Iggy and Deng had to take a larger role on the offense, I believe their defense would fall off enough, and/or their offensive skills would lack enough so Rudy would be better.

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I'm not sure how his #s were here but I think most defensive metrics give him more credit than is due because he played on such a great defensive team in Memphis.
I can say the same about Deng? And George atm.

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Iggy did shit the bed on free throws last year but he's such a great defender and is a much better facilitator than rudy.
He's better in those aspects, but offensively I'd still say Gay is CLEARLY better. And when it comes down to being clutch, creating your own shot? Doesn't that matter anymore?
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Pierce might be declining but he's a much smarter player than Rudy, a better shooter, and facilitator his raw stats last year weren't far off his career averages.
Yea but I think he's declining. If we're talking last year, regular season (cause he didn't do well in the playoffs), he can be 4th over George. But I think he's going to show age next season. He's going to be 36, and I don't think he'll be able to play anywhere near 36 mins. The only reason why BOS didn't get swept was cause JR is an idiot. I called sweep before game 1, they got into the playoffs cause they play in a very week conference, and two teams in the divison (Us, and Philly) shat the bed.

Quote:
And yeah like woodchuck said SPG is not a good measure of defense at all.
Thought he said it was a factor.. I look at it, it's apart of defense. I think defense can be mostly a team thing as well, but some excel anywhere they go like Iggy, and prolly Deng would too. But doesn't mean it's not a factor at all. I didn't say they were bad defenders, please don't make it seem like I did...







Jesus that was long, no moar I promise. I prolly wrote in stuff I might take back on here since I didn't proof read it.
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:22 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Fact is rudy's style of ball is not compatible with being a contending team.
You're joking right?
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:30 PM   #51 (permalink)
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You're joking right?
I honestly agree with him
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:35 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I honestly agree with him
So no matter who you put around him you can't contend?
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:37 PM   #53 (permalink)
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So no matter who you put around him you can't contend?
Well let me rephrase it, i think you can contend with Rudy he's just gotta change his style a bit (which a tough coach could help with) so hes more of a team player and less of a chucker at times.
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:43 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Why not? If Rudy was playing along someone like Dirk or Pau, two-three years ago with other pieces around him as well, you don't think he'd even be on a contending team? You realize he's was averaging 20ppg, 6rpg, 3apg, 1.7 spg, 1 bpg on 47% fg, and 40% 3p. There's nothing wrong with his 'style', what's wrong with him is injuries.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:31 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Would you rather be overpaid or underrated?

Rudy's a great player. Is he a franchise player though? Hell to the na.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:39 PM   #56 (permalink)
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So no matter who you put around him you can't contend?
That's totally what I said
I view rudy as a lesser melo. Even melo who is top 10 in the league I think will have a hard time winning a championship as #1 without a great supporting cast because of how he plays.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:42 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Would you rather be overpaid or underrated?

Rudy's a great player. Is he a franchise player though? Hell to the na.
He's a perfect number 2 imo. You put a lights out shooter at SG next to him and if JV can be a double double Center and average 2blks then you have something. He has to be paired with an all-star or borderline all-star SG that can shoot. Easier said then done but imo that's what would need to be done for us to go deep in the playoffs. If you look around the league it's difficult to get great SG's these days.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:45 PM   #58 (permalink)
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That's totally what I said
I view rudy as a lesser melo. Even melo who is top 10 in the league I think will have a hard time winning a championship as #1 without a great supporting cast because of how he plays.
As a #1 option you're probably right unless he can get back to his percentages of his first 3-4 seasons. But I think you can contend with him on the roster a lot easier than with Derozan as the main guy. One of them needs to go and the one staying needs to be paired with an all-star wing player that can hit shots consistently. Still think Gay can get back to 44-45FG%, 36 3pt%
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:36 PM   #59 (permalink)
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As a #1 option you're probably right unless he can get back to his percentages of his first 3-4 seasons. But I think you can contend with him on the roster a lot easier than with Derozan as the main guy. One of them needs to go and the one staying needs to be paired with an all-star wing player that can hit shots consistently. Still think Gay can get back to 44-45FG%, 36 3pt%
Oh hell yeah he's better than demar at everything. If we had to keep one (ignoring salary) it'd be rudy.
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:18 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I don't give a shit about stats.
The only thing that matters is that we started winning when Gay came in. End of story.
We started winning well before Gay came in. We'd played 500 ball for a month at that point.
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