ESPN Panel: Rudy Gay most overrated small forward - Page 2
Old 08-05-2013, 03:19 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Rudy's better than gallo, batum and parsons off of clutch factor alone, funny how no one notices how much rudy steps his game up against lebron,melo,KD
if he played like that consistently he would be a top 5 sf
He plays so well against higher competition.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:19 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Rudy's better than gallo, batum and parsons off of clutch factor alone, funny how no one notices how much rudy steps his game up against lebron,melo,KD
if he played like that consistently he would be a top 5 sf
But he doesn't. I hope he does next season. I really do. But you can't rate people based on what you hope they would do if they were consistent.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:26 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Call me a hater/pessimist if you want. I place a lot of stock in efficiency.

1.Lebron


2.Durant




3.Melo

4.Paul George



5.Deng
6.Pierce
7.Gallinari
8.Gay
9.Iggy
10.Leonard
8-10 are interchangeable. Gallo plays great defence and is so much more efficient.

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Old 08-05-2013, 03:26 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Rudy is underrated if you think he's an allstar level player. Is he a top 5 SF? That's up for debate, because the 5th spot is up for grabs.

I don't think it's debatable that the current top 4 SFs right now are Lebron, KD, Melo, and George.

So then you have the following guys in the discussion in the top 10:

Pierce, Deng, Gallo, Iggy, Parsons, Batum, Leonard, Gay

I think the discussion on Gay being #5 on the totem pole is based off of assumption or hope instead of production, in terms of looking at his last 2 years anyway. Was there a philosophy and style of play change in Memphis? Sure. Rudy wasn't the guy or 1a anymore in their offence. Did he adjust to his new role? No, he didn't, and that's what is most alarming to me anyway. He couldn't adjust from being 'the guy' to one of the teams main options, but at a lower usage, and not on pure isolations all of the time, but rather in the flow of the offence.

In Toronto, he became 'the guy' again, but this time with lesser teammates than in MEM, and the percentages show that he just isn't capable of producing wins at a high rate as the #1 option. Can he produce his early career(19+6 on good percentages) numbers as the #2 guy on a winning team? That is yet to be seen at this point in his career obviously, but I think in order for him to do so he's going to have to change the way he plays because how he gets his points now is too difficult in an efficient offence. Teams are going to a more pick and roll heavy offence because it's a lot easier to slow down ISO heavy teams due to smarter schemes and teams really taking advantage of zone defences.

Rudy needs to change his game to become better in pick and roll schemes, as well as making quicker moves off of the dribble if he wants to become a legit 2nd option on a good team IMO. And also he obviously needs to refine his 3 point spot up shooting A LOT as it's dropped by an average of 7% points over the past 3 years.

Otherwise, I'd take guys like Leonard, Parsons, and Deng over him in a heartbeat(I probably would right now anyway). I think Pierce and Iggy are better than him currently too.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:31 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KoolAid View Post
Call me a hater/pessimist if you want.

1.Lebron


2.Durant







3.Melo
4.Paul George
5.Deng
6.Pierce
7.Gallinari
8.Gay
9.Iggy

8 and 9 are interchangeable. Gallo plays great defence and is so much more efficient.
I would say Gay's defense is better than Galinari, as is his rebounding (even with Galinari being bigger). That being said, putting gay 7-8th is far from being a hater or over rating him. Like I said, 5-10 are open for debate. But he's absolutely a top 10 SF in the NBA, so calling him overrated is asinine imo unless you're basing it purely on salary.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:33 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I would say Gay's defense is better than Galinari, as is his rebounding. That being said, putting gay 7-8th is far from being a hater or over rating him. Like I said, 5-10 are open for debate. But he's absolutely a top 10 SF in the NBA, so calling him overrated is asinine imo unless you're basing it purely on salary.
+1
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:38 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I would say Gay's defense is better than Galinari, as is his rebounding (even with Galinari being bigger). That being said, putting gay 7-8th is far from being a hater or over rating him. Like I said, 5-10 are open for debate. But he's absolutely a top 10 SF in the NBA, so calling him overrated is asinine imo unless you're basing it purely on salary.
I can totally get that. I think those putting him at 5 or 6 are projecting him to improve to those levels that he was previously at. 7-10 are those expecting him to remain the player he was last year.

That said, the drop off after the top 3 or 4 is really big.

Last edited by KoolAid; 08-05-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:45 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I can totally get that. I think those putting him at 5 or 6 are projecting him to improve to those levels that he was previously at. 7-10 are those expecting him to remain the player he was last year.

That said, the drop off after the top 3 or 4 is really big.
Agreed. He's probably 7-8 at this point, if he improves his efficiencies to say 45/36 he's probably 5th.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:48 PM   #29 (permalink)
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But he doesn't. I hope he does next season. I really do. But you can't rate people based on what you hope they would do if they were consistent.
yea that's why i said "would" lol
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:51 PM   #30 (permalink)
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From all the top 10 SF, if we're talking who's the best player to be franchise player, I think Rudy is in the top 5, over Deng, george, iggy. Iggy shot 57% from the ft line, he's become worse per year for like... no reason. Maybe if it was a few years ago, I'd say Iggy. Plus thought he plays a lot of SG?

George was good this year in the playoffs (NVM he played 4 good games against the heat, thought it was less). I might give him the edge, he can be 4th, that's fair... but something still says 'too early' for something like that.

Deng is good, but not a first option in the slightest, he's a side piece, if he was the focal point I doubt he'd be able to create his own shot better than Gay. I have a hard time believing if he'd be able to do that, or even average 20. He shoots as bad as blind Gay. For a guy who thinks he shoulda been DPOY last year, he's never averaged over 1.3 steals. Does play good defense, but I think it's a bit hyped up. If there was a 'overrated' SF I'd say Deng over Gay easily.

Granger you can have a potential argument of who'd be better, but Gay would get his team more involved I think, and better locker room guy, less threes maybe?

Gay can score around 20ppg as option 1, which I only thing Grager and maybe George can really do, (and at decent %s) George would be the better rebounder, and defender... So I'd give him 4th, and between Granger and Gay I'd give Gay 5th cause I think he'd be better for a team, since he's less selfish and can average more than 1.0/1.1 steals (granger's spg numbers last two years).
Oh and Pierce is declining atm, guess he'd be 5th or 4th, not sure what he'll bring in next season.

Last edited by Ataf; 08-05-2013 at 04:00 PM. Reason: George played better den I sed.. Pierce part :S didn't really give him much thought since he's like 35 (80 in bbal years) now
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:07 PM   #31 (permalink)
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He is not overrated, he is overpaid though. He is a good shooter and a great rebounder for his position. He is a difference maker.
Agreed completely
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:15 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Everybody defending Rudy Gay hadn't given any reason to dispute what the article says. He isn't elite in anything, and when it comes to scoring inefficiently, that doesn't make him elite neither even though he gets a high ppg. Until he becomes good or elite in an aspect like making plays for his teammates, defense, ball handling and passing, he's just an overpaid scorer who can create his own shots but knock them down in an inefficient clip.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:20 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Deng (....) For a guy who thinks he shoulda been DPOY last year, he's never averaged over 1.3 steals.
# of steals is a horrible way to judge defense. It's a factor. But you have Avery Bradley and prime Tayshaun Prince types who hardly ever gamble and play mindblowing defense without getting steals.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:28 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KoolAid View Post
Call me a hater/pessimist if you want. I place a lot of stock in efficiency.

1.Lebron


2.Durant




3.Melo

4.Paul George



5.Deng
6.Pierce
7.Gallinari
8.Gay
9.Iggy
10.Leonard
8-10 are interchangeable. Gallo plays great defence and is so much more efficient.
Sounds reasonable.

To me, last season it was

LeBron
Durant

Melo

George

Deng, Iggy, Pierce, possibly AK if he didn't miss so many games

Then it's the Gay's tier: Gay, AK, Batum, Jeff Green, Parsons, Kawhi, Gallo, Hayward
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:39 PM   #35 (permalink)
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From all the top 10 SF, if we're talking who's the best player to be franchise player, I think Rudy is in the top 5, over Deng, george, iggy. Iggy shot 57% from the ft line, he's become worse per year for like... no reason. Maybe if it was a few years ago, I'd say Iggy. Plus thought he plays a lot of SG?

George was good this year in the playoffs (NVM he played 4 good games against the heat, thought it was less). I might give him the edge, he can be 4th, that's fair... but something still says 'too early' for something like that.

Deng is good, but not a first option in the slightest, he's a side piece, if he was the focal point I doubt he'd be able to create his own shot better than Gay. I have a hard time believing if he'd be able to do that, or even average 20. He shoots as bad as blind Gay. For a guy who thinks he shoulda been DPOY last year, he's never averaged over 1.3 steals. Does play good defense, but I think it's a bit hyped up. If there was a 'overrated' SF I'd say Deng over Gay easily.

Granger you can have a potential argument of who'd be better, but Gay would get his team more involved I think, and better locker room guy, less threes maybe?

Gay can score around 20ppg as option 1, which I only thing Grager and maybe George can really do, (and at decent %s) George would be the better rebounder, and defender... So I'd give him 4th, and between Granger and Gay I'd give Gay 5th cause I think he'd be better for a team, since he's less selfish and can average more than 1.0/1.1 steals (granger's spg numbers last two years).
Oh and Pierce is declining atm, guess he'd be 5th or 4th, not sure what he'll bring in next season.
Since when does creating your own shot and averaging 20 PPG make you a better player than someone else who has a better overall game? Iguodala is a better player than Gay because he does more things on the floor to consistently contribute to winning. Deng may be as inefficient in a 1st option role as Gay was last year, but on a winning team, he fits like a glove because he plays his role beautifully as a 3rd option and very good defensive player.

If you actually think that Gay is a better player than George at this point in time then you didn't watch George a lot last season.

Gays problem is that his style doesn't coincide with a good team offence due to his propensity to need to isolate and dominate the ball, while not scoring at a high enough clip to help his team consistently win games. You're not going to be a winning team anyway with Rudy as your number 1 guy, so what's the point of your argument?
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:39 PM   #36 (permalink)
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From all the top 10 SF, if we're talking who's the best player to be franchise player, I think Rudy is in the top 5, over Deng, george, iggy. Iggy shot 57% from the ft line, he's become worse per year for like... no reason. Maybe if it was a few years ago, I'd say Iggy. Plus thought he plays a lot of SG?

George was good this year in the playoffs (NVM he played 4 good games against the heat, thought it was less). I might give him the edge, he can be 4th, that's fair... but something still says 'too early' for something like that.

Deng is good, but not a first option in the slightest, he's a side piece, if he was the focal point I doubt he'd be able to create his own shot better than Gay. I have a hard time believing if he'd be able to do that, or even average 20. He shoots as bad as blind Gay. For a guy who thinks he shoulda been DPOY last year, he's never averaged over 1.3 steals. Does play good defense, but I think it's a bit hyped up. If there was a 'overrated' SF I'd say Deng over Gay easily.

Granger you can have a potential argument of who'd be better, but Gay would get his team more involved I think, and better locker room guy, less threes maybe?

Gay can score around 20ppg as option 1, which I only thing Grager and maybe George can really do, (and at decent %s) George would be the better rebounder, and defender... So I'd give him 4th, and between Granger and Gay I'd give Gay 5th cause I think he'd be better for a team, since he's less selfish and can average more than 1.0/1.1 steals (granger's spg numbers last two years).
Oh and Pierce is declining atm, guess he'd be 5th or 4th, not sure what he'll bring in next season.
Sure, I guess Gay can avg 20ppg as a 1st option...but he doesn't. Granger if healthy (like 2011-12) would be ahead of Rudy. You say Granger takes more 3s like its a bad thing. And you can't really say Rudy would get his team involved more than Granger because neither are great at that aspect of the game. Deng, George, and Iggy play better defence than Rudy. I'm not sure how his #s were here but I think most defensive metrics give him more credit than is due because he played on such a great defensive team in Memphis. Iggy did shit the bed on free throws last year but he's such a great defender and is a much better facilitator than rudy. He's 2nd to lebron among SFs at playmaking imo. Pierce might be declining but he's a much smarter player than Rudy, a better shooter, and facilitator his raw stats last year weren't far off his career averages.

And yeah like woodchuck said SPG is not a good measure of defense at all.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:52 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Sure, I guess Gay can avg 20ppg as a 1st option...but he doesn't. Granger if healthy (like 2011-12) would be ahead of Rudy.
Would be.......ok. Except that Granger has missed the last full season and is 30 while Gay is 26. And in 2011-12, Granger averaged 18ppg on 41FG%. Is that really better than Gay in his worst season? Gay is a better rebounder than Granger and certainly no worse defensively. If healthy, at best these two are comparable SF's. IMO based on age, recent injury issues (Granger just missed a full season) i'd take Gay over Granger.


Career numbers:

Granger: 18ppg/ 5.2rpg/ 2apg (43FG%, 38 3PT%)

Gay: 18ppg/ 5.8rpg/ 2apg (45FG%, 34 3PT%)

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Old 08-05-2013, 04:53 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Btw. I just noticed the "Gay is a better locker room guy than Granger" argument.

I don't think that has any basis at all. Granger is a brilliant locker room presence. Gives credit and stands up for his teammates, no "me" attitude. He's one of the smartest people in the league. He may not be a perfect basketball player, he may not always make the best basketball decisions, but as a person, he's great.
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:56 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Btw. I just noticed the "Gay is a better locker room guy than Granger" argument.

I don't think that has any basis at all. Granger is a brilliant locker room presence.
Brilliant?


Hehee, strong word.......I guess you've spent time in the Indiana locker room?
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Old 08-05-2013, 05:04 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Would be.......ok. Except that Granger has missed the last full season and is 30 while Gay is 26. And in 2011-12, Granger averaged 18ppg on 41FG%. Is that really better than Gay in his worst season? Gay is a better rebounder than Granger and certainly no worse defensively. If healthy, at best these two are comparable SF's. IMO based on age, recent injury issues (Granger just missed a full season) i'd take Gay over Granger.


Career numbers:

Granger: 18ppg/ 5.2rpg/ 2apg (43FG%, 38 3PT%)

Gay: 18ppg/ 5.8rpg/ 2apg (45FG%, 34 3PT%)
Granger shoots so many 3s (and makes them) and draws so many fouls, that he was still efficient in 11-12 despite his FG%.
In fact, his true shooting numbers were comparable to Gay's best years.

FG% should be erased from internet btw. It's such a 1970s stat. When there was no 3pt line, it made some sense to look at FG%.
With the 3pt line, we have Landry Fields shooting 46% and Steph Curry shooting 45%, but so what? Curry is one of the most efficient scorers in the league and Fields is one of the most inefficient scorers in the league.
That stat should've been forgotten 40 years ago.
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