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Old 08-01-2013, 05:24 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Ask the Lakers about chemistry.
Yeah, because teams like Cleveland, Atlanta, Detroit, Milwaukee, and Washington are filled with superstars who will struggle to blend egos.

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In the first year in Miami, you had two alpha dogs trying to gel and close games. The last two years, they know its Lebron's team. Sometimes, it takes time for teams to gel and find their identity. It took a few years of hard losses, before the Bulls, Pistons and Rockets won multiple championships in the 1990's. The only team that came together right away and won a championship was the Celtics with KG, Pierce, and Allen. Chemistry and the development of core players playing together several years (stability) is a huge factor.
Chemistry has a much larger part in winning a championship than it does to make the playoffs. Miami knew who's team it was from the start, if you think that making the finals had no chemistry involved, then clearly chemistry isn't a big deal. It took a few years of not getting owned by hard fouls whenever you go to the hoop against Detroit for Jordan to win, sure. He also got a guy called Scottie Pippen who improved as he got older, as most do. Houston didn't win because of their chemistry, they won because Jordan retired. Talent > chemistry.

Chemistry has an effect, but you look at our team, I'm pretty sure the only guy here for more than 1 season is DeMar. A lot of stability there... The guys might hang out together and stuff but how does that translate to the court? Knowing DeMar likes roscoes chicken and waffles isn't going to help you get him the ball in his favorite spots.

The difference between us and those other teams in terms of chemistry isn't that big, and most of them outmatch us when it comes to talent.

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Old 08-01-2013, 05:29 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Yeah, because teams like Cleveland, Atlanta, Detroit, Milwaukee, and Washington are filled with superstars who will struggle to blend egos.



Chemistry has a much larger part in winning a championship than it does to make the playoffs. Miami knew who's team it was from the start. It took a few years of not getting owned by hard fouls whenever you go to the hoop against Detroit for Jordan to win, sure.

Chemistry has an effect, but you look at our team, I'm pretty sure the only guy here for more than 1 season is DeMar. A lot of stability there... The guys might hang out together and stuff but how does that translate to the court? Knowing DeMar likes roscoes chicken and waffles isn't going to help you get him the ball in his favorite spots.

The difference between us and those other teams in terms of chemistry isn't that big, and most of them outmatch us when it comes to talent.
Chemistry not even close to accurate. Talent definitely accurate.
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Old 08-01-2013, 05:32 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Chemistry not even close to accurate. Talent definitely accurate.
Our starting guys played together for like 3 months. It's not that big of an advantage. Training camp erases it IMO.
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Old 08-01-2013, 05:51 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Our starting guys played together for like 3 months. It's not that big of an advantage. Training camp erases it IMO.
Fair enough. For me though, to have a training camp with no distractions? no JC, no Bargs, and the biggest one, no BC interfering? To have a training camp with the same starting 5 to start the season as the same 5 that ended last season is extremely important; as now players can apply their developing chemistry while they're learning the system and how to play the system together- catered to each's strength and weakness.

I don't want to exaggerate the importance of 'chemistry' as really it's just a part to the whole with a successful team. I just don't want to devalue the importance of it either.
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Old 08-01-2013, 06:07 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Our starting guys played together for like 3 months. It's not that big of an advantage. Training camp erases it IMO.
Looking at it another way, 4 out of the 5 players having played a full year and 2 summer camps together, and Rudy Gay having played half a year and a full training camp with the team.
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:29 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Ask the Lakers about chemistry. In the first year in Miami, you had two alpha dogs trying to gel and close games. The last two years, they know its Lebron's team. Sometimes, it takes time for teams to gel and find their identity. It took a few years of hard losses, before the Bulls, Pistons and Rockets won multiple championships in the 1990's. The only team that came together right away and won a championship was the Celtics with KG, Pierce, and Allen. Chemistry and the development of core players playing together several years (stability) is a huge factor.
or boston after they got KG, Allen and Rondo and kept only Pierce and Perkins from the old team. How did that work for them? Wait, that's a bad example Or our own team in 2006 after we got 4 new starters and won 20 extra games the next season.

Chemistry is how people try to explain a bad fit situation. Rather than admit that player X didn't really fit the system/style of play, they will blame it on chemistry which sounds like something that can't really be controlled so it's nobody's fault

IMO, if a player fits, then chemistry won't be an issue and if he doesn't, you try adjustments and maybe you can make it work, or maybe not. So in that respect, there's something to the notion.

Same with a group of players that stays together for many seasons, if they mesh well, they will get stronger, but if they don't, they'll just grow to hate each other (LA with Shaq and Kobe and Phoenix with Marion and Amare).
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:03 AM   #47 (permalink)
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or boston after they got KG, Allen and Rondo and kept only Pierce and Perkins from the old team. How did that work for them? Wait, that's a bad example
That is a bad example, all of the big Boston 3 are heading into the HOF, all 3 were just cresting the downside of their career, all 3 had about 30 allstar appearances combined, all 3 had already played together a number of times in all star games and international play. And to top it off, Boston lucked out with a surprise all star on their team in Rondo. They win 1 title and then started bickering. They had no chemistry to keep them together.

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Chemistry is how people try to explain a bad fit situation. Rather than admit that player X didn't really fit the system/style of play, they will blame it on chemistry which sounds like something that can't really be controlled so it's nobody's fault
I agree and a lot of people do that. However your own example of Boston shows that the lack of chemistry tore the team apart, first Allen with Rondo, Allen leaves, KG and big baby, Rivers and Rondo, KG with the world, etc. If you don't have chemistry you won't want to adapt to other player's strengths and weaknesses, you won't want to sacrifice - it starts to become a battle with coaches and players, then you don't fit - a la Stephen Jackson. If chemistry can be controlled teams would stay together like the Lakers with Shaq/Kobe (as you pointed out) - the lack of chemistry between those 2 broke that dynasty in it's infancy. Detroit comes together and that core with Billups/RIP/Prince/Wallace/Wallace stays together is probably the epitome of chemistry - just not quite enough talent to win more titles.

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IMO, if a player fits, then chemistry won't be an issue and if he doesn't, you try adjustments and maybe you can make it work, or maybe not. So in that respect, there's something to the notion.
I agree but really if the player is not liked that usually leads to him or the hating parties to be traded as the other players won't adapt to his skills. Then you have players that don't quite 'fit' when they should - like AB here. He should have fit but he was on the outside looking in.

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Same with a group of players that stays together for many seasons, if they mesh well, they will get stronger, but if they don't, they'll just grow to hate each other (LA with Shaq and Kobe and Phoenix with Marion and Amare).
I think we're all talking about the same thing just using different words lol. To me, chemistry is really an umbrella word for other adjectives and descriptors for how players interact with each other and what they will do for each other (for good or ill). I think that once you start using the word 'chemistry' as a descriptor the whole concept becomes confusing and muddled. Sadly, I do it as well on occasion

Just to be clear on my end, a lack of chemistry won't stop a team from winning a title(s) but it sure can tear a good team a part (Lakers) or bring a good team together (Heat).

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Old 08-02-2013, 03:12 PM   #48 (permalink)
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That is a bad example, all of the big Boston 3 are heading into the HOF, all 3 were just cresting the downside of their career, all 3 had about 30 allstar appearances combined, all 3 had already played together a number of times in all star games and international play. And to top it off, Boston lucked out with a surprise all star on their team in Rondo. They win 1 title and then started bickering. They had no chemistry to keep them together.



I agree and a lot of people do that. However your own example of Boston shows that the lack of chemistry tore the team apart, first Allen with Rondo, Allen leaves, KG and big baby, Rivers and Rondo, KG with the world, etc. If you don't have chemistry you won't want to adapt to other player's strengths and weaknesses, you won't want to sacrifice - it starts to become a battle with coaches and players, then you don't fit - a la Stephen Jackson. If chemistry can be controlled teams would stay together like the Lakers with Shaq/Kobe (as you pointed out) - the lack of chemistry between those 2 broke that dynasty in it's infancy. Detroit comes together and that core with Billups/RIP/Prince/Wallace/Wallace stays together is probably the epitome of chemistry - just not quite enough talent to win more titles.
it wasn't chemistry that beat them, it was age and injuries, when they were healthy, even the season before they almost beat miami and had bradley been available I think they would have beaten them, even if Bosh was available for all games. And the lakers won 3 titles despite no chemistry being present. Sure, if you break the team up, you're not going to keep winning and if things get bad enough that players give up, same outcome. But, the team was the most successful team of the decade even while having little chemistry.


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I think we're all talking about the same thing just using different words lol. To me, chemistry is really an umbrella word for other adjectives and descriptors for how players interact with each other and what they will do for each other (for good or ill). I think that once you start using the word 'chemistry' as a descriptor the whole concept becomes confusing and muddled. Sadly, I do it as well on occasion

Just to be clear on my end, a lack of chemistry won't stop a team from winning a title(s) but it sure can tear a good team a part (Lakers) or bring a good team together (Heat).
not sure we're on the same page, while I won't dispute the fact that a team without chemistry may not last as long as a team where players get along, that was not the point of the discussion. The idea was that some teams will struggle this season because as they have new players to integrate and I pointed out that this is not true. The reverse is also not so clear, there are plenty of examples of teams that get along really well and still don't win shit.

and, as a side note, I really don't think the heat get along all that well, despite the public appearances. It's just the big three is very media savvy and also Lebron is such a towering presence these days that everybody has to defer. Had they not won this season (we all know how close that was), we may not even discuss this now ...

The only things that matters imo is talent and work ethic (assuming good coaching is in place). If you have both, you don't need chemistry or culture to win, if you don't have either, all the culture and chemistry won't help one bit.

Still, I agree with the idea that Bargnani had to be traded, because (and this is different from chemistry as we discussed it) I do believe that one bad apple could spoil the cart, especially if there are perceived favouritism involved. Working hard doesn't come naturally to anybody, and busting your ass while the favoured son just gets his undeservedly is that much harder.
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