ESPN Offseason Buzz: Bosh up, Turkoglu Down
Old 09-11-2009, 05:41 PM   #1 (permalink)
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No team made more moves or spent more money than the Raptors this summer. If all the new additions are on the opening-day roster, they will have seven new faces: Marco Belinelli, Hedo Turkoglu, Jarrett Jack, Reggie Evans, Quincy Douby, Antoine Wright and rookie DeMar DeRozan. Even the coaching staff has been restocked, with assistants Marc Iavaroni and Alex English joining coach Jay Triano, whose interim tag was dropped. All this was meant to convince one old face, F/C Chris Bosh, to re-up next summer.

To see which player is taking off, which is crashing to earth and which name you'll need to know for the 2009-10 season, you must be an ESPN Insider.

Trending up: Chris Bosh

Last season: 22.19 PER
2009-10 projection: 22.80 PER

Bosh can opt out of his contract and become a free agent after the season. Oh, you've heard?

Well here's something you might not know: He's still getting better, making him an even more desirable commodity. If the Raptors falter out of the gate, speculation about Bosh's future will only pick up steam between now and the trade deadline. If they play well, it might happen anyway. The only way to quell the rumor mill is for Bosh to sign an extension before the season, and he doesn't appear inclined to do so.

Regardless of where he plays, he'll produce when he's on the court, and based on his youth and year-to-year history, his numbers could jump again. With the additional offensive weapons Toronto imported, the increases may arrive more in the form of higher percentages than in higher per-game totals, but don't be shocked if his PER lands in the mid-20s this year and his name gets mentioned in first-team All-NBA discussions. -- Hollinger

Trending down: Hedo Turkoglu

Last season: 14.80 PER
2009-10 projection: 13.56 PER

Turkoglu inked a five-year, $52 million deal to join the Raptors, a signing that technically became a sign-and-trade after the fact when Orlando agreed to cut a deal. His acquisition should be of some benefit to the Raptors in the short term, but a horror in the long term. Turkoglu is 30 and he's not even that good; last year he ranked below the league average in PER and it's not like he's out there for his defense. In that sense, his deal is reminiscent of the Hornets' signing of Peja Stojakovic, providing immediate help but becoming a massive liability toward the end of the contract.

For now, however, we're in the "help" portion. Toronto badly needed a shot-creator on the wing, and Turkoglu fills the void. His ability to shoot and pass will help all the other floor-spacers the Raps accumulated too, with the net result being a similar one to Orlando's where he plays point forward for much of the game. Therefore, his numbers in Toronto probably won't be much different than they were a year ago. -- Hollinger

The pick-and-roll artistry of Turkoglu and Dwight Howard appeared to be the driving force behind Orlando's surprising run to the Finals last year. The team not even trying to re-sign him, then, was just as big a surprise. Innuendo from the Magic front office is that he's not a cornerstone-type guy; specific areas of concern haven't been identified, but how he left Portland at the altar to sign with the Raptors did nothing to quell the whispers.

The question for Toronto, of course, is whether he can be just as effective running the P&R with Bosh as he was with Howard. Bosh is a far more versatile scorer, but he doesn't have Howard's pick-setting girth, nor his explosiveness at the rim. Nor does Toronto have Orlando's array of 3-point shooters after dealing Jason Kapono to Philadelphia.

There's also the contract. Turkoglu was appreciated because he was arguably Orlando's MVP while being paid half of what Howard and Rashard Lewis were making. Now he's No. 2 on the pay scale behind Bosh, and how well he lives up to that rank could determine whether No. 1 sticks around.
-- Bucher

Bucher's name to know: Andrea Bargnani

The Raptors just locked him up with a pricey five-year, $50 million extension, meaning Bargnani now has to live up to being a No. 1 pick and landing a hefty contract. Of course, if the Raptors are borrowing from Orlando's recipe for making it to the Finals -- as they seemed to in snaring Turkoglu with a five-year, $53 million deal -- Bargnani is Italian for Lewis, as in Rashard, as in Turkoglu's former sidekick, another excellent 3-point shooting big man with below-average rebounding ability.

Their numbers for last season aren't that disparate (17.7 points, 5.7 rebounds for Lewis; 15.4 points, 5.3 rebounds for Bargnani) and the Italian actually averaged 19 points over the past four months of the season, thanks to Jermaine O'Neal's injury and his subsequent trade to Miami.

The perimeter shooting, though, is where the similarities end. Bargnani has to defend one of the power positions and, ideally, the toughest matchup to keep the gangly Bosh out of foul trouble. Can Bargnani do that and still have the legs to knock down 3s? If he can, his new deal, compared to Lewis' monstrous contract, might just be a bargain. -- Bucher
NBA Offseason Buzz -- Toronto Raptors revolve around still-improving Chris Bosh - ESPN

I think that they are right on the money as far as Bosh goes.

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Old 09-11-2009, 05:42 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Wasn't Douby and English here last season? Tell me I'm not dreaming.
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:56 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Wasn't Douby and English here last season? Tell me I'm not dreaming.
i think he ment rasho 4 doubs and he didnt see english last year
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Old 09-11-2009, 06:02 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Am I reading it right? Hedo isn't that good, but he was arguably the MVP of a Finals team?
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Old 09-11-2009, 06:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Am I reading it right? Hedo isn't that good, but he was arguably the MVP of a Finals team?
How is that arguable? Dwight averaged 20/10, was an all-star, and was the defensive player of the year.

How is it arguable that hedo was the MVP of that team when Dwight was in the running for the MVP of the league?
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Old 09-11-2009, 06:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Bmats, read the article. It says right there that he was arguably the MVP of that team in the finals.

I think that's LX is referring.

Must learn to read.
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
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In one breath he says Turkoglu isn't that good and then turns around and says he was Orlando's MVP in the playoffs-finals?

WTF??
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:52 PM   #8 (permalink)
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One is J.Hollinger, the other is R. Bucher.

John Hollinger eta his brain with Hedo and put his career to the table. Very well known Hedo basher. He stopped it during the Playoffs then continued to write again after Hedo signed with Toronto. Acc to his well known PER system Adonal Foyle's 08-09 PER is 19.75 and he was 3rd best of Magic. I guess there is no need to extra explanation.


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Old 09-11-2009, 10:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Vellassco View Post
One is J.Hollinger, the other is R. Bucher.

John Hollinger eta his brain with Hedo and put his career to the table. Very well known Hedo basher. He stopped it during the Playoffs then continued to write again after Hedo signed with Toronto. Acc to his well known PER system Adonal Foyle's 08-09 PER is 19.75 and he was 3rd best of Magic. I guess there is no need to extra explanation.

Show me where Hollinger has actually written that he thinks Adonal Foyle is a better player than Hedo Turkoglu. Foyle only played 62 minutes last season, so his PER figure is meaningless. If you set a baseline for minutes played in a season - say about 1,000 minutes - it's a pretty useful and accurate stat for measuring productivity.

Of course, when PER judges somebody's favorite player harshly, they love to pull out examples like yours to try to make it look irrelevant.
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Am I reading it right? Hedo isn't that good, but he was arguably the MVP of a Finals team?
Well spotted it's a self contradiction , glaringly visible and demollishes his article's credentials from within .



This is a problem with over analogy IMHO .

Sure there is room for all that statistical crap .

But the Game & Players are more then numbers .

It's ( watching Basketball ) a visual perception above all .
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Show me where Hollinger has actually written that he thinks Adonal Foyle is a better player than Hedo Turkoglu. Foyle only played 62 minutes last season, so his PER figure is meaningless. If you set a baseline for minutes played in a season - say about 1,000 minutes - it's a pretty useful and accurate stat for measuring productivity.

Of course, when PER judges somebody's favorite player harshly, they love to pull out examples like yours to try to make it look irrelevant.
Of course, but he never does anything to quell any doubts about his numbers. He doesn't even attempt to point out the flaws of his formula. This is why so many people hate Hollinger.
Preferring to mislead people =/= gaining their trust
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:30 PM   #12 (permalink)
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The question for Toronto, of course, is whether he can be just as effective running the P&R with Bosh as he was with Howard. Bosh is a far more versatile scorer, but he doesn't have Howard's pick-setting girth, nor his explosiveness at the rim. Nor does Toronto have Orlando's array of 3-point shooters after dealing Jason Kapono to Philadelphia.
Dwight is a fruit , still needs to get ripe , more .

He will be awesome oneday ; no doubt , but as of yet , he is still not all he can be .

Hedo is a selfless guy , in a sensible way .
He will do better with Bosh , perhaps Bosh has a different approach to rim , one which pre-dominates the position which dwight often would be failed to do .

My guess is that Hedo will act like the second in command to Bosh and take as many shots he can take .

He is not expected to lead the team but make an existing plan work .

The plan is to have Toronto holding it's own in the NBA within 5 years .
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:37 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Scott Carefoot View Post
Show me where Hollinger has actually written that he thinks Adonal Foyle is a better player than Hedo Turkoglu. Foyle only played 62 minutes last season, so his PER figure is meaningless. If you set a baseline for minutes played in a season - say about 1,000 minutes - it's a pretty useful and accurate stat for measuring productivity.

Of course, when PER judges somebody's favorite player harshly, they love to pull out examples like yours to try to make it look irrelevant.
Here we have Scott... You surprised me, It took a bit more time than i think

First of all, PER is Player Efficiency Rating, not Productivity Rating. Sure English is not my native language but as far as i know, Productivity is a measure of how much work is done in a certain amount of time while Efficiency is amount of effort or energy that it takes to accomplish a certain task or operation. So if our main goal is to argue PER system in other words Efficiency of a certain player, it should be taken under consideration independently from player total minutes.

Lets come to your buddy, J.Hollinger and his sytem.He proceeds to discuss a variety of measures of performance which serve as bricks for PERs. These bricks include Points per Shot Attempt, Pure Point Rating, Assist Ratio, Turnover Ratio, Rebound Rate, and Usage Rate. He defends these measures as “improvements” over existing metrics, often noting that the rankings that result evaluate players in a fashion consistent with what NBA observers would believe. In other words, his metrics fit what he believed about the players before he started.
Unfortunately, this is not the way science works. You cant begin with your beliefs, play with the numbers until your beliefs are confirmed, and then call it a day. Models are not evaluated in terms of whether they are consistent with what we believe, but in terms of their ability to explain what we purport to explain.

Regarding Hollinger and Hedo; I've read his many articles as much as i could found time and when the subject comes to Hedo he is acting like quixotically just like you. There are many beliefs in their comments.

For your question: Dont you read huh.... Show me where i said Hollinger has written that he thinks Adonal Foyle is a better player than Hedo. I gave an example to show how valuable his system. Thats all...

My last words for you: Please stop tracing my back. May be you are not but please ignore my posts when you see me ok? Ill do same thing to you

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Old 09-11-2009, 11:54 PM   #14 (permalink)
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"Turkoglu is 30 and he's not even that good; last year he ranked below the league average in PER and it's not like he's out there for his defense."

Bullshit...who wrote this article...tukoglu is 30...so what if he is 30....Dirk is 31 and he is getting better...and they the writer follows up "he is not even that good"...what a childish statement...who says that...not a professional obviously...and than he goes to last year.....did the writer know that hedo was consider MVP for orlando last year...he was more effective than many players...he showed up in playoffs...somebody tell the write you dont have to play 48 minutes to be effective...just like selling ..you can work 2 hours and sell like you worked for 8 hours...

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Old 09-12-2009, 12:12 AM   #15 (permalink)
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"Turkoglu is 30 and he's not even that good; last year he ranked below the league average in PER and it's not like he's out there for his defense."

Bullshit...who wrote this article...tukoglu is 30...so what if he is 30....Dirk is 31 and he is getting better...and they the writer follows up "he is not even that good"...what a childish statement...who says that...not a professional obviously...and than he goes to last year.....did the writer know that hedo was consider MVP for orlando last year...he was more effective than many players...he showed up in playoffs...somebody tell the write you dont have to play 48 minutes to be effective...just like selling ..you can work 2 hours and sell like you worked for 8 hours...
Actually...

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Turkoglu was appreciated because he was arguably Orlando's MVP while being paid half of what Howard and Rashard Lewis were making.
...he did.
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Old 09-12-2009, 06:00 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Its so obvious hedo is "that good" when you look at the discussions and articles about him still being written.You can check the magic message boards and see the disappointment of them letting go after the signing of Carter with big money. Yes, hedo's name is not as big as Carter, Dirk, Rashard ,Pierce etc but effectiveness and versatility is another issue.The big advantage is he has euro mindset means the team performance is more matter than the individual statistics.He just doesnt concentrate his scoring, he tries to make his team mates participated to the system.( see the videos of Dwight's comment before he joins to rap and Rashard joke about kidnapping him if he doesnt resign). He can play multiply positions, take the all responsibilities even some players try to escape and has been liked by all fans and team mates.

One of the point is age factor they critisize, but isn't it biased when u look at the age of Pierce 32,Manu 32,carter 32,Dirk 31, Marion 31, stephen jackson 31,Odom 30, Rashard Lewis 30 etc and regard of the time and money of their contract's (most of them's contract has 3 years or more and the money they get in 3 years are quite more than hedo gets in 5 years). Also all these players got the full min since they joined to the nba opposite of hedo. He was usually bench player in early years of his career cause of not being given chance for him to show his talent (In 3 years sacto he was behind of Peja, in one year in spurs he was sharing the time with manu and first 2 years in magic he was behind of Grant Hill). So even his 9 years of nba career and his age, he has gotten +35 mins for the last 3 years.Thus, its not difficult to get there is still something in his tank .Also we all know his game doesnt depend on his explosiveness or athleticism.

Summary up, The Raptors organization and Colangelo made the right decision and made him signed. Sure, hedo might sometimes have difficult periods or bad performances but in the long term, the acquisition of Demar's performance,the killer pick and roll with both Bosh and Barnigani you ll be so glad and proud of him.
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Old 09-13-2009, 12:50 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Show me where Hollinger has actually written that he thinks Adonal Foyle is a better player than Hedo Turkoglu. Foyle only played 62 minutes last season, so his PER figure is meaningless. If you set a baseline for minutes played in a season - say about 1,000 minutes - it's a pretty useful and accurate stat for measuring productivity.

Of course, when PER judges somebody's favorite player harshly, they love to pull out examples like yours to try to make it look irrelevant.
True, but if you look at the screenshot you should see Zach Randolph there with a PER of 19+. I can assure you, at the same contract, not a single GM will take Z-Bo over Turkoglu. Americans place way too much weight on statistics. They are helpful in trying to understand the value of a player, especially to get a cursory idea of their production, but they can be extremely misleading. Players affect their teams in ways that cannot be simplified into a mathematical formula.
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Old 09-13-2009, 02:51 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Dwight is a fruit
I stopped reading after that.
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Old 09-13-2009, 02:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Old 09-13-2009, 05:29 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I stopped reading after that.

Metaphor is present in the oldest written Sumerian language narrative, the Epic of Gilgamesh:

My friend, the swift mule, fleet wild ass of the mountain, panther of the wilderness, after we joined together and went up into the mountain, fought the Bull of Heaven and killed it, and overwhelmed Humbaba, who lived in the Cedar Forest, now what is this sleep that has seized you? — (Trans. Kovacs, 1989)

In this example, the friend is compared to a mule, a wild donkey, and a panther to indicate that the speaker sees traits from these animals in his friend (A comparison between two or more unlike objects).

The idea of metaphor can be traced back to Aristotle who, in his “Poetics” (around 335 BC), defines “metaphor” as follows: “Metaphor is the application of a strange term either transferred from the genus and applied to the species or from the species and applied to the genus, or from one species to another or else by analogy.”[8] For the sake of clarity and comprehension it might additionally be useful to quote the following two alternative translations: “Metaphor is the application of an alien name by transference either from genus to species, or from species to genus, or from species to species, or by analogy, that is, proportion.”[9] Or, as Halliwell puts it in his translation: “Metaphor is the application of a word that belongs to another thing: either from genus to species, species to genus, species to species, or by analogy.”[10]

Therefore, the key aspect of a metaphor is a specific transference of a word from one context into another. With regard to the four kinds of metaphors which Aristotle distincts against each other the last one (transference by analogy) is the most eminent one so that all important theories on metaphor have a reference to this characterization.

The Greek plays of Sophocles, Aeschylus, and Euripides, among others, were almost invariably allegorical, showing the tragedy of the protagonists, either to caution the audience metaphorically about temptation, or to lambast famous individuals of the day by inferring similarities with the caricatures in the play.

Novelist and essayist Giannina Braschi states, "Metaphors and Similes are the beginning of the democratic system of envy."

Even when they are not intentional, they can be drawn between most writing or language and other topics. In this way it can be seen that any theme in literature is a metaphor, using the story to convey information about human perception of the theme in question.
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