espn eastern conference rankings - Page 3
Old 07-25-2013, 08:11 PM   #41 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,226
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by niggles View Post
Age, ego's, age, ego's, age, ego's, age, ego's. D Will isn't a HOF'r.
No, but kg and pierce are
Deron has a small chance, if he goes back to the player he once was and wins a title or two
Ego is a problem on any team with multiple stars. Having a bunch of veterans should help immensely
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 08:21 PM   #42 (permalink)
doesn't care where LeBron plays. Or Melo.

OY!!
 
niggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Loch Ness
Posts: 2,678
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
No, but kg and pierce are
Deron has a small chance, if he goes back to the player he once was and wins a title or two
Ego is a problem on any team with multiple stars. Having a bunch of veterans should help immensely
Of course they are. But that was then and this is now and they are another year older and time has a way of eroding skills, no matter the will to make it otherwise. And is it going to be Dwill's team or KG's team? The situation is ripe for dysfunction.
niggles is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 08:55 PM   #43 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,226
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
Stop being such a silly goose. You're completely missing the point. Yes, the Raps should lose games to good teams. That's not the point. The point is the EXTENT of the losing during that horrid stretch. If you're a decent team, which the Raps are without Bargnani, they should also win some games against good teams, especially at home. The San Antonio game is actually a perfect example of what I'm talking about, and why you're being a silly goose who probably doesn't even watch the actual games.

Your criteria is dumb. We outplayed the Spurs that game. Did you even watch it? We were in a position to win, then we subbed Bargnani back in the game and he shot like 1 for 20 or something, including a bunch of misses in the 4th and overtime. Hardcore fans rememebr that game because JV played amazing against Duncan and after the game Duncan was really complimentary about Jonas's game and fututre in the league.

P.S.
I'm not even kidding. Bargnani literally went 1-20 or something close to it. Unfucking-believeable that he was allowed to touch the ball that much during that game. It was the epitome of winnable. We just pissed it away by playing him. Another organization would have sat him, since he did nothing else of value.
not that it matters, but I've watched nearly every Raptors game over the past 8 years, so there's no need to be aggressive.

My point, which you either can't or won't understand, is that against that kind of a schedule, we wouldn't have won more than 7 or 8 games with or without bargnani. Most of the games were on the road and many against elite teams.

And if you want proof, go check the record against .500 teams or better in dec-march when we played without bargnani. I just checked now, and we've only won 5 such games with two against teams severely depleted (clippers without paul and denver without ai, chandler and gallinari) and the other 3 wins were against two over .500 teams with which we matched up well for some reason (NYK and Indiana).

You say we'd have won without Bargnani against SA, yet in the second game, without bargnani, we lost by 20 and the score was kinder than the game. That proves how dangerous it is to make such assumptions. Let's also conveniently ignore losing lowry and aa during that stretch and having to rely on an ice cold lucas and very raw ross to carry the bench.

Or how about the games since gay joined the team, where we went .500, but the record was embellished with a few easy wins against teams basically playing with their second group (chicago without noah and deng twice, boston without kg and pierce and atlanta without horford, smith and teague). If those 4 wins become 3 losses and 1 win (I'm being kind), the record become 16 and 19, i.e. 37 and 45 over a full season.

An argument "without Bargnani we'd have done such and such" is very convenient since it cannot be reliably proven or disproven. For myself, I tied, but I just can't recall an example of any team who got significantly better by losing a player for nothing (i.e addition by substraction). Which is the argument you're making ...
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 08:57 PM   #44 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,226
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by niggles View Post
Of course they are. But that was then and this is now and they are another year older and time has a way of eroding skills, no matter the will to make it otherwise. And is it going to be Dwill's team or KG's team? The situation is ripe for dysfunction.
I have a feeling it will be JK's team ...

My only concern with them is how good will JK be as a coach. Talent wise, that team is off the charts. May not be an efficient payroll, but that's not the point.
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 09:12 PM   #45 (permalink)
doesn't care where LeBron plays. Or Melo.

OY!!
 
niggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Loch Ness
Posts: 2,678
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
I have a feeling it will be JK's team ...

My only concern with them is how good will JK be as a coach. Talent wise, that team is off the charts. May not be an efficient payroll, but that's not the point.
That's a cop out. JK is the coach and there is always a player whose dominant on the floor, no matter how strong the coach is. And JK has a steep learning curve, which is why Lawrence Frank was brought on board.
niggles is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 09:17 PM   #46 (permalink)
Psi
Only likes Hockey with 'Fantasy' infront of it

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 1,848
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
Absolute Objectivity and no bias whatsoever
So what if there's bias, it doesn't make him wrong.
I completely agree with him with one slight thing.
We're slightly worse then Cleveland if Bynum is 100% healthy the entire season.
Otherwise they'll simply drop like a

Edit: I re-read it, and I'm completely in agreement with him, since he put us behind Cle.
Psi is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 09:36 PM   #47 (permalink)
the gat'll killya quicker, when I'm drunk off the liquor

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,825
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
not that it matters, but I've watched nearly every Raptors game over the past 8 years, so there's no need to be aggressive.

My point, which you either can't or won't understand, is that against that kind of a schedule, we wouldn't have won more than 7 or 8 games with or without bargnani. Most of the games were on the road and many against elite teams.
Who is being agressive now? It's not a matter of can't or won't understand, it's a matter of a I disagree with you.

Quote:
And if you want proof, go check the record against .500 teams or better in dec-march when we played without bargnani. I just checked now, and we've only won 5 such games with two against teams severely depleted (clippers without paul and denver without ai, chandler and gallinari) and the other 3 wins were against two over .500 teams with which we matched up well for some reason (NYK and Indiana).
I reject your "proof". Here are several reasons why.

1 - If you're going to talk about depleted lineups, then you have to take that into account for us, too, since we didn't have a full roster in a one point loss to Atlanta the night of the Rudy trade.

2 - there is a difference between home and road games. Three of the winnable games I listed agaist Indiana, Spurs, and Jazz were all home games. That's 3 wins right there.

Then you got bullshit losses to Charlotte, the Pistons, those Brooklyn games.

It's not that unrealistic to think Bargnani contributed to making a 4-15 team crappier; they could have been 9-10. That's reasonable to say.

3 - i like how you conveintly bookmark Dec-March as the proof. It includes a bunch of road games when playing the elites, which is different than what I was talking about, and it eliminates 5 straight wins against above .500 oponents in April.


Quote:
You say we'd have won without Bargnani against SA, yet in the second game, without bargnani, we lost by 20 and the score was kinder than the game. That proves how dangerous it is to make such assumptions. Let's also conveniently ignore losing lowry and aa during that stretch and having to rely on an ice cold lucas and very raw ross to carry the bench.
No, it doesn't. It proves what a lot people here already know: playing elite teams on the road is extremely difficult, although it's quite possible to beat them at home. Again, road games and home games are different.

Quote:
Or how about the games since gay joined the team, where we went .500, but the record was embellished with a few easy wins against teams basically playing with their second group (chicago without noah and deng twice, boston without kg and pierce and atlanta without horford, smith and teague). If those 4 wins become 3 losses and 1 win (I'm being kind), the record become 16 and 19, i.e. 37 and 45 over a full season.
That Chicago team played the fuck out of Miami in the playoffs with a depleted lineup and no Deng. I think any win against Chicago is a good win, to be honest. Just like the Spurs manage to beat elite teams while sitting a couple of their starters.

Also, as for the Atlanta game, they actually did start Smith and Teague. But we were already demolishing them by half-time, so of course they'd sit them. You can nitpick over that win, since they didn't try to comeback, but we still jumped on their starters right away.

Quote:
An argument "without Bargnani we'd have done such and such" is very convenient since it cannot be reliably proven or disproven. For myself, I tied, but I just can't recall an example of any team who got significantly better by losing a player for nothing (i.e addition by substraction). Which is the argument you're making ...
Then you've never heard of the "Patrick Ewing effect".

Sometimes the guy playing a big role is just getting in the way of the proper use of the rest of the roster. It's not a novel argument; you're just a bad sports fan.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 07-25-2013 at 09:38 PM.
Bill Haverchuck is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 05:00 AM   #48 (permalink)
Likes raw prospects with a great work ethic...

Senior Member
 
LKeet6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Liverpool (UK)
Posts: 1,853
Representing:
Default

Bill, you regularly post excellent posts on here mate.

I have watched every raps game for the last 3 seasons and I find it really fucking hard to remember them, i'm so impressed by your recollections. And now that I've been reminded of the games, I can confirm that you are totally correct! The spurs game especially was fucking depressing! Complete collapse from 3 Qs of some of the best play I've seen from the raps.

and the obviousness of the home/away thing, is, well, obvious.

last point, we've disagreed on the whole melo thing in another thread, what you said about the ewing effect is exactly how I feel about melo! obviously you will disagree with me, but there you go....
LKeet6 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 06:48 AM   #49 (permalink)
LX
with pink peppercorns

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,511
Representing:
Default

Melo isn't the best example in the sense that Denver got a fair bit back for him. But he is an example of a player mucking up a team's ability to find their identity, mostly through his distracting calls for a trade. The negative effect of needing to always have parts of the roster being driven to cover for Andrea's weaknesses cannot be underestimated enough. I don't know how anyone could have watched every game he played and not have come to that conclusion.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 07:55 AM   #50 (permalink)
speak a good england

Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 57
Representing:
Default

There's a lot of hype going into next season and with raptor fans being the most vocal and supportive fans in the league even with the team playing shit, I can't wait to see what happens if we finally start winning some fucking games. Its going to be awesome and I'm going to visit a few friends in Toronto in December. Will definitely go to a game. Can't wait!
fizzgig is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 08:58 AM   #51 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,226
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by niggles View Post
That's a cop out. JK is the coach and there is always a player whose dominant on the floor, no matter how strong the coach is. And JK has a steep learning curve, which is why Lawrence Frank was brought on board.
Yes, but he was a player last season, he's a HOF, highly respected and very close to Deron. Also, KG and Pierce are very experienced veterans who know how to win and how to keep a locker room together. Despite having a quite difficult rondo on their team in Boston, they managed without major issues.

I agree that JK's inexperience is going to be key, but with such an experienced team I just don't see any way they're winning less than 50 games, barring catastrophic injuries. I know some people compare them with LAL last season, but I don't think it's the same situation, because their bench is miles ahead of what the lakers had last season.

I am very interested to see how they're doing, but my money is we will see them in the conference finals at the very least this upcoming season.
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 09:02 AM   #52 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,226
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
Melo isn't the best example in the sense that Denver got a fair bit back for him. But he is an example of a player mucking up a team's ability to find their identity, mostly through his distracting calls for a trade. The negative effect of needing to always have parts of the roster being driven to cover for Andrea's weaknesses cannot be underestimated enough. I don't know how anyone could have watched every game he played and not have come to that conclusion.
yes, Denver got a shitload of players back and they won the same number of games. And they got great improvements from their rookies/sophomores (ty lawson and farried).

I don't necessary disagree with the theory that removing Bargnani will improve the locker room and the culture and what not, but I would definitely not bank on it. It's a possibility though and we'll see soon enough how things go in the new season.
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 10:59 AM   #53 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,332
Representing:
Default

I'm gone absolutely mad but am sticking by my picks. Indy takes it all this time and Raptors finish well into the playoffs.

1. Indiana
2. Miami
3. Nets
4. Chicago
5. Raptors
6. Knicks
7. Cavs
8. Atlanta
9. Wizards
10. Detroit
11. Boston
12. Bucks
13. Orlando
14. Charlotte
15. Philly
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 11:28 AM   #54 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,226
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
I reject your "proof". Here are several reasons why.

1 - If you're going to talk about depleted lineups, then you have to take that into account for us, too, since we didn't have a full roster in a one point loss to Atlanta the night of the Rudy trade.
and your point is? The argument I was making is that during that stretch we also missed some other key players which may have been the main contributing factor and not just bargnani's performance.

Quote:
2 - there is a difference between home and road games. Three of the winnable games I listed agaist Indiana, Spurs, and Jazz were all home games. That's 3 wins right there.

Then you got bullshit losses to Charlotte, the Pistons, those Brooklyn games.

It's not that unrealistic to think Bargnani contributed to making a 4-15 team crappier; they could have been 9-10. That's reasonable to say.
the record with Bargnani was 5 and 19, not 4 and 15. If we won 6 more games, which is a massive stretch to assume imo, that still makes us 11 and 13 and over the full year makes a 40-42 team. At least we are nearly on the same page, I suggested that,at most, you can expect to win 3 or 4 extra games in those two months.

Quote:
3 - i like how you conveintly bookmark Dec-March as the proof. It includes a bunch of road games when playing the elites, which is different than what I was talking about, and it eliminates 5 straight wins against above .500 oponents in April.
The 3 months are the months we played without bargnani. If i wanted to pick a convenient stretch, I would have picked one of those 3 months when we had a terrible record. I've only eliminated April because those games come with question marks which I've explained in the post below. Fact is, all but one of those key wins came against basically .500 teams missing 2 or 3 key players (or playing them token minutes) AND not that interested in winning (everybody but Chicago was trying to avoid the 4-5 spots and a date with Miami).


Quote:
That Chicago team played the fuck out of Miami in the playoffs with a depleted lineup and no Deng. I think any win against Chicago is a good win, to be honest. Just like the Spurs manage to beat elite teams while sitting a couple of their starters.

Also, as for the Atlanta game, they actually did start Smith and Teague. But we were already demolishing them by half-time, so of course they'd sit them. You can nitpick over that win, since they didn't try to comeback, but we still jumped on their starters right away.
Right, because teams trying to win games commonly sit down their best player and if they're fall down by 15, not even bring back their starters - they just assume the game will be lost ... The bulls missed BOTH Deng and Noah. And Boston played without KG and Pierce left after a few minutes. If you want to base your predictions on the future season on games like this, you are welcome - but don't blame the rest of world for taking them with a grain of salt.

Quote:
Then you've never heard of the "Patrick Ewing effect".

Sometimes the guy playing a big role is just getting in the way of the proper use of the rest of the roster. It's not a novel argument; you're just a bad sports fan.
um, again you are being aggressive for no reason. You may feel strongly about something, but that doesn't make it fact and certainly doesn't make other people who disagree a "bad sports fan".

The original "Patrick Ewing theory" was tongue in cheek - Bill Simmons is not one to be taken at face value all the time, surely you realize that the Knicks have been historically bad after Ewing was no longer there ... Even Simmons himself "revisited" his theory here this year The Sports Guy dusts off a time-tested hypothesis - Grantland
And, even if true, the theory applies to very good players that don't have a net positive result comparable to their talent. Guys like Iverson for example.
I think that is something that happens often, but I've never heard of a team becoming better just by losing a player. You are welcome to examples though ...
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 11:44 AM   #55 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,018
Representing:
Default

I think Boston could surprise people.
bjjs is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 12:00 PM   #56 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 72,723
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
I think Boston could surprise people.
I agree,

Rondo
Bradley
Lee
Green
Wallace
Bass
Brooks
Humphries
Olynyk
Sullinger
Wilcox


There's certainly some talent there. If they can remain healthy I don't see them being nearly as bad as some think

Last edited by jeffb; 07-26-2013 at 12:02 PM.
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 12:10 PM   #57 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,332
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
I think Boston could surprise people.
Yep... but I also think Ainge will unload the remainder of the talent before the trade deadline and tank proper.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 12:14 PM   #58 (permalink)
doesn't care where LeBron plays. Or Melo.

OY!!
 
niggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Loch Ness
Posts: 2,678
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
I agree,

Rondo
Bradley
Lee
Green
Wallace
Bass
Brooks
Humphries
Olynyk
Sullinger
Wilcox


There's certainly some talent there. If they can remain healthy I don't see them being nearly as bad as some think
Agreed, but a lot will depend on how well the new coach picks up the NBA game.
niggles is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 12:15 PM   #59 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,332
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
I think that is something that happens often, but I've never heard of a team becoming better just by losing a player. You are welcome to examples though ...
Easiest example is hockey though, Andrew Raycroft or Toskala. These guys were paid too much to sit on the bench even though any AHL goalie or NHL back-up would have done better. Once the salary was gone anyone better can step in.

Bargani had to play and get big minutes or BC looks like an ass. I think there was enough news about DC having to play line-ups that weren't the best because of salary and the GM's plan. Once you don't have to start him.. you could play Acy and do better.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 12:39 PM   #60 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 72,723
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolAid View Post
The last three years are the only ones where he really got PT. He's missed 40 games over that time span and was playing hurting in quite a few others. If that's not injury prone, I don't know what is. It almost seems like a safe bet he'll be hurt for at least 5 games next year...are we going to be starting DJ Augustin?
half of those games missed were not due to injury, he had a dangerous staff infection. To me injuries don't include illness.

BTW, 40 games missed in 3yrs to you is a lot?

5 games next season....that's fuck all. Most players miss at least that.

Last edited by jeffb; 07-26-2013 at 12:44 PM.
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24