espn eastern conference rankings - Page 10
Old 07-29-2013, 07:00 PM   #181 (permalink)
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Well, first, there's a point where you pick talent over fit. But more importantly, I don't know why Horford would be a worse fit next to Jonas than Amir. Horford would be an awesome fit. If Jonas becomes a legit low post threat, a much better fit. Let Jonas keep working on his low post game on both ends, and stick Horford in the high post, let him can space the floor, rebound, pass and vocally lead the defense. They fit like a glove.
I personally don't pick talent over fit. That's just me. Feel free to disagree. And there is a place for a motor over talent in many instances in my books.

I would also hope to see Jonas used outside of the low post. I would like to see him develop into the guy that can execute in the high post and at the top of the key. Nowhere did I say the fit with Horford wouldn't be good, but it old have to be guessed at to some extent as to Horford's comfort level, whereas you can see the fit developing between Jonas and Amir, and if it continues to work well, and they get better, it would mean thinking twice, for me at least, about making a change that might not turn out to be such n automatic upgrade.
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:29 PM   #182 (permalink)
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Well, if you don't pick talent over fit, then why would you expend so much energy explaining how Horford is overrated and not much more than a role player?

The way I understood your earlier posts, you meant that the difference in talent is small enough that you prioritize fit.
I don't think you would really pick e.g. Keith Bogans over DeMar if you needed a shooter?

I think when talent is close, then it makes sense to go for fit. In this case, I don't think it's really close. Horford would be the best player on this team.
And I think Horford is a better fit on top of it. Including if you want to use Jonas outside the low post.

Btw, Al Horford has outstanding motor. Also, I consider motor a talent... Talent isn't just jumping ability and skills. Talent is the whole package.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:37 PM   #183 (permalink)
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I didn't think I expended that much energy explaining how Horford is overrated. I think I said he was somewhat overrated, and that I liked him. I'm not sure what you're getting at at this point, if you're bringing up the idea of specialists in terms of talent. Let me just say that a year ago I would have suggested Amir was a prime asset for a trade scenario. Now I think he has approached what Horford is able to do. There is a big difference in proven abilities over time, but I find Horford does not bring it every night. Maybe I'm wrong and have just caught him at bad moments. In any case, I still see what is developing in the front court here, as is, and would be a little anxious about just about any change involving Amir. I don't think you find a lot of players that have no decline in their game when they are sick, have a chewed up ankle or whatever, and a player with that much fight in them can really help a team get better. I felt the same about Garbajosa. Amir is just starting to understand the game to some extent of how Jorge did. And he has a lot more ability and athleticism to go along with that. But let's just make out like he's barely capable of playing offense or 30 minutes, because that was the case a year ago. Or let's not.
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:15 PM   #184 (permalink)
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I didn't think I expended that much energy explaining how Horford is overrated. I think I said he was somewhat overrated, and that I liked him. I'm not sure what you're getting at at this point, if you're bringing up the idea of specialists in terms of talent. Let me just say that a year ago I would have suggested Amir was a prime asset for a trade scenario. Now I think he has approached what Horford is able to do. There is a big difference in proven abilities over time, but I find Horford does not bring it every night. Maybe I'm wrong and have just caught him at bad moments. In any case, I still see what is developing in the front court here, as is, and would be a little anxious about just about any change involving Amir. I don't think you find a lot of players that have no decline in their game when they are sick, have a chewed up ankle or whatever, and a player with that much fight in them can really help a team get better. I felt the same about Garbajosa. Amir is just starting to understand the game to some extent of how Jorge did. And he has a lot more ability and athleticism to go along with that. But let's just make out like he's barely capable of playing offense or 30 minutes, because that was the case a year ago. Or let's not.
Where I'm getting at... Nowhere, I was just looking to get back to the topic.

In the last few posts, you were implying that there's some underlying difference in how we see basketball ("i don't pick talent over fit, there's place in my book for motor over talent, i don't play fantasy basketball").
And I don't think there is much difference.

I think we just disagree on quality of two specific players. I see a ~top 30 player in the NBA. You see... not that. To me, this is one of those Gay vs. Melo and DeMar vs. Paul George discussions.

Last edited by woodchuck; 07-29-2013 at 09:32 PM. Reason: clarifying
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:12 PM   #185 (permalink)
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Amir is very young - and he also seems to have somewhat of a unique personality. He has had some monster games where he has completely outplayed near 'superstar' type players like Kevin Love.

On a winning team, Amir playing like he did last season would get a lot of recognition around the league.

I really like Horford and I think you know what you get from Horford and he's obviously more proven, but as a Raptors fan, I really want to see if Amir can build on last season going in as a starter.

My second favourite moment last season was when Jack called Amir the best big man on the team; the politics and pretending were finally cast aside. He's young and it's exciting as Raptor fans to see what he might be able to do in his first full season as a full time starter beside Jonas.

He is also very talented. He does some great things on defense with his footwork guarding the pick and roll.

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Old 07-29-2013, 10:14 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Yeah ok chuck. But Horford sucks.








Just kidding.

I didn't mean to imply a superior approach. Just wanted to make my approach clear, in that as a starting point my interest is not to ever to make an issue about player A being better than player B. I do think there is less of a gap between most players than what is generally assumed, and that there is a big pool of talent that could become one or two time all stars given the right circumstances. That's not that any that make it are undeserving - they made something of their circumstances.
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:51 PM   #187 (permalink)
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the problem when dealing with non-numerical evaluations is that it's so easy to make any argument. Sure, amir is almost as good as horford. On the course of a season, he may be worth only 3pt/game less than Horford. Which is nothing, right? Except that's the difference between Brooklyn (a 49 wins team) and Toronto (34 wins).

What you have to love about Amir is that he truly got better almost every season and what was once a reggie evans type of player on offense is now almost a weapon. He's among the best on the P&R and his jumper has come a huge way. The gap between him and horford is much smaller than it once was.

But I wouldn't call Horford overrated, he's underrated and it's another sad example of a player doing the right things (playing out of position, not making waves) and not getting the proper recognition.
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:03 AM   #188 (permalink)
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Poor poor Al. So sad. If only I could love him instead of just like him. But I can't. I'm sorry Al. I'm sorry moremilk. I am truly truly truly sorry.
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:07 PM   #189 (permalink)
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Poor poor Al. So sad. If only I could love him instead of just like him. But I can't. I'm sorry Al. I'm sorry moremilk. I am truly truly truly sorry.
"Its not me, its you"
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Old 07-30-2013, 04:40 PM   #190 (permalink)
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Yeah ok chuck. But Horford sucks.








Just kidding.

I didn't mean to imply a superior approach. Just wanted to make my approach clear, in that as a starting point my interest is not to ever to make an issue about player A being better than player B. I do think there is less of a gap between most players than what is generally assumed, and that there is a big pool of talent that could become one or two time all stars given the right circumstances. That's not that any that make it are undeserving - they made something of their circumstances.
I agree that the difference in talent is greater in the top tiers than it is as you start comparing talent towards the end of the roster. This is why we've been so bad for so long.... we keep thinking we can turn a fourth starter into a number one option and be content with it while winning teams have multiple players capable of being number 2,3 and 4 options.
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