ESPN: Bargnani Overrated
Old 10-03-2011, 09:48 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Colin McGowan, Cavs: The Blog: How valuable is a player when he defends his counterpart with roughly the same alacrity as a sack of potatoes? I suppose we should ask Raptors fans. They openly loathe Andrea Bargnani (No. 81), who turns to an immobile glut of starch when called upon to defend. He is also 7 feet tall and somehow shot 44.8 percent from the field last season.
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Daniel Nowell, Magic Basketball: Andrea Bargnani attempts almost exactly as many 3s per game as shots at the rim and tries even more from 16-23 feet. That adds up to a 7-footer with a true shooting percentage lower than the league average. It seems as though he's ranked this high mostly because Toronto is still mistaken about how much it should feature him.
#NBArank debates -- Overrated/underrated - ESPN
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Old 10-03-2011, 10:55 PM   #2 (permalink)
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44.8 percent isnt bad considering the amount of long range shots he takes. sure he doesnt have to and shouldnt, but you cant discred his shooting touch. bicker about his D, his mindset and motivation and ill agree with you. but his shooting and offence is one of the better in the game and with a contract at less than 10 mil id say its a pretty good deal.
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:03 PM   #3 (permalink)
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44.8 percent isnt bad considering the amount of long range shots he takes. sure he doesnt have to and shouldnt, but you cant discred his shooting touch. bicker about his D, his mindset and motivation and ill agree with you. but his shooting and offence is one of the better in the game and with a contract at less than 10 mil id say its a pretty good deal.
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:12 PM   #4 (permalink)
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It's bad for a 7-footer that is a detriment on defense. He needs to be a lot more efficient to make up for what is given up on the defensive end.
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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AB does need to cut down on the 15-18 footers.....
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:18 PM   #6 (permalink)
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And the fadeaways from 3 or 4 feet out.
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:29 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Overrated? Who's overrating him?

Certainly not the Raptors fanbase...
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
Overrated? Who's overrating him?

Certainly not the Raptors fanbase...
exactly what crossed my mind. but then i thought, maybe hes referring to other managers, in which case.. JACK POT
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:47 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
AB does need to cut down on the 15-18 footers.....
but his close range scoring isn't good, so i'm not sure what else he should do with those shots. Other than just shoot less and become a lower scoring option.

he hits 57% of his layups. Is there a 7 footer who's worse? I checked the few i could think of, guys who suck like Biedrins, Milicic etc, Bargs is so much worse.

57% is pretty crappy when you consider that going at the basket also means more tough 3ft shots -- which everyone but Dirk sucks at.
Also, blocks, fumbled passes.
Idk, if you shoot 57% in layup/dunk situations, the solution would seem to stay out, not go in.

He just shouldn't score as much. The perfect situation for Bargs would be a lot of 3s, uncontested layups and way less mid range. That would only happen in Orlando though.
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:17 AM   #10 (permalink)
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exactly what crossed my mind. but then i thought, maybe hes referring to other managers, in which case.. JACK POT
Actually, it's more based on the fact that he was ranked 81st in the league. They say he's the most overrated player ranked 61-100 IN THEIR OWN RANKINGS believe it or not. LMAO
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:33 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Bargnani is one of the best scoring Centers in the NBA. Comparing C FG % is irrelevant as he is naturally a PF.

Along with the offense Bargnani is obviously disappointing defensively and is a mediocre rebounder. Not all players are all-stars so it is what it is. For his position at C Bargnani is no worse defensively than is Derozan at SG or Calderon at PG. Andreas rebounding numbers are very disappointing though.

Perhaps he's not worth over 10M but is he really overrated? Doubt it. No one is really saying he is that amazing. 81st in the league on some subjective rankings... who cares. He's still the best player on the Raptors... out of 29 teams it is okay to have your best player be 81st. That's not overrated imo.

Derozan and Davis are overrated. Maybe not on the poll but by Raptor fans.

Last edited by 6cubed; 10-04-2011 at 12:36 AM.
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Old 10-04-2011, 01:02 AM   #12 (permalink)
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It was only one guy saying that about Andrea, so let's not overreact. wWth that said, he's ranked as #81 overall, below guys like Afflalo, Danilo, Nic Batum, Camby (at age 37), etc.

Bargs is what he is; a role player. Still, he's I believe the first guy on that list so far to average 20ppg.

ESPN really hates Bargs - they both rate him low and rate him as overrated.
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Old 10-04-2011, 01:03 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 6cubed View Post
Derozan and Davis are overrated. Maybe not on the poll but by Raptor fans.
Davis? Please, half the people on this site have discussed trading him. IMO if anything he's underrated and a little forgotten for some inexplicable reason. Derozan on the other hand is maybe a little overrated but not by much, just based on his athletic ability and work ethic/attitude alone.

Bargnani is a marshmellow....
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:39 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Bargnani is the best Center that is actually not at all a Center.

Get over it ESPN. It is what it is..........n't.
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:22 AM   #15 (permalink)
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The Bryan Collangelo/Andrea Bargnani era has been a disappointing one.
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:20 AM   #16 (permalink)
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ok, live and learn. turns out you can actually easily check where a guy ranks in layup/dunk %.
I can't believe i wasted some 30 minutes last night searching for random names and comparing it.

Of ~440 players who got some minutes in NBA games last year, Bargs ranks 327th (at-the-basket shot %).

He does beat Marcus Camby, Reggie Evans, Ben Wallace, Zaza Pachulia. And a few Troy Murphy / Brian Cardinal types, guys who play garbage time. But every decent 4-5 is far ahead of him.
If you compare him to other positions - he beats Melo, Q-Richardson, Chauncey Billups, Stephen Jackson, Hedo, a few other bigger names. Still, there were 326 guys better. He's near the botton among the Raptors too, except Reggie, Bayless and some guys you traded to the Hornets.

Anyway, just for fun.
These % were bugging me since yesterday, I was a bit surprised by them.
I kind of get stuck on D, rebounds and bad jumpers when i watch Bargs play. And I didn't realise his layup numbers suck that much.
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:40 AM   #17 (permalink)
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There's a simple catch-all stat for shooting that takes into account his three pointers. It is called effective field goal percentage, you may have heard of it.

Bargs' eFG%: .480. 264th in the league. Behind such players as Anthony Carter, Ryan Gomes, Maurice Evans, Joey Graham, Jamario Moon...

There's no arguing he has a unique and dangerous offensive skill set. But he doesn't use it to actually generate efficient offense the way he could.
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:14 PM   #18 (permalink)
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There's a simple catch-all stat for shooting that takes into account his three pointers. It is called effective field goal percentage, you may have heard of it.

Bargs' eFG%: .480. 264th in the league. Behind such players as Anthony Carter, Ryan Gomes, Maurice Evans, Joey Graham, Jamario Moon...

There's no arguing he has a unique and dangerous offensive skill set. But he doesn't use it to actually generate efficient offense the way he could.
But his offensive positioning does help others..... including Davis, Amir and anybody else operating in the paint.
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Old 10-04-2011, 01:02 PM   #19 (permalink)
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But his offensive positioning does help others..... including Davis, Amir and anybody else operating in the paint.
For sure - my stance is that he should spend MORE time on the perimeter. He is most efficient from there - and it would allow the offense to be run through Jose-Amir pick and rolls (which are freaking deadly, if the other big can't help) and Demar curls, cuts and isos (again, very effective with no C/PF in the paint to help).

If you look at his 3FG% over his career (.371) multiplied by 1.5 to get his eFG% from 3 - that's .557 eFG% from 3, 1.11 points per shot. If you only look at 09-10 and 08-09, which would be relevant since he wouldn't be ebaring the offensive load he was this past season, that goes up to .390 3FG%, .585 eFG% and 1.17 points per shot. That's not bad at all.

Compare that to his eFG% and points per shot in the same time ranges. For his career, he is a .496 eFG%, or 0.99 points per shot. For his two peak years, he was about a eFG% of .518, or 1.04 points per shot.

So leaving him on the perimeter would make him so much more effective shooting the ball, probably netting him 15 to 20 points per game even with a reduced usage, and would cut down on his turnovers and allow him to actually use some energy on the defensive end*.

* I know this isn't the main problem with his defense, but having more energy would probably help a little bit. And this would certainly eliminate the psychological aspect of 'saving' your energy for the offensive end, where your team 'needs' you.
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Old 10-04-2011, 01:12 PM   #20 (permalink)
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For sure - my stance is that he should spend MORE time on the perimeter. He is most efficient from there - and it would allow the offense to be run through Jose-Amir pick and rolls (which are freaking deadly, if the other big can't help) and Demar curls, cuts and isos (again, very effective with no C/PF in the paint to help).

If you look at his 3FG% over his career (.371) multiplied by 1.5 to get his eFG% from 3 - that's .557 eFG% from 3, 1.11 points per shot. If you only look at 09-10 and 08-09, which would be relevant since he wouldn't be ebaring the offensive load he was this past season, that goes up to .390 3FG%, .585 eFG% and 1.17 points per shot. That's not bad at all.

Compare that to his eFG% and points per shot in the same time ranges. For his career, he is a .496 eFG%, or 0.99 points per shot. For his two peak years, he was about a eFG% of .518, or 1.04 points per shot.

So leaving him on the perimeter would make him so much more effective shooting the ball, probably netting him 15 to 20 points per game even with a reduced usage, and would cut down on his turnovers and allow him to actually use some energy on the defensive end*.

* I know this isn't the main problem with his defense, but having more energy would probably help a little bit. And this would certainly eliminate the psychological aspect of 'saving' your energy for the offensive end, where your team 'needs' you.
I agree.... though I'd love to see him take away many of his long, lazy J's just inside the arc and at least showing a little more post offence which would help appease the reboundball hate.
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