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-   -   Enough with the crazy talk. (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/enough-crazy-talk-4701.html)

TORaptor4Ever 12-03-2008 02:05 PM

Enough with the crazy talk.
 
Trade Jose?

We should've kept TJ and Rasho?

WTH???

Listen.... I appreciate the fact that last night's loss hurt BIG TIME.... and that we've already taken 3-4 of the most painful losses in Raps history this season in the first 17 games.... but I think that some of the stuff that I'm hearing is crazy.

Jose:

The guy is PLAYING HURT right now. I'm 98% sure of this. He's not going whine and he's not going to make excuses but he's too much of a competitor to look this bad without something being seriously wrong. He's #2 in the LEAGUE in assists right now and is always near the top of the league in asst/TO ratio. You just don't give up on a player like that. 90% of the teams in the league would KILL for a floor general like that.

JO:

Was anyone questioning the value of this trade when he was putting up 5 double-doubles in a row? He was EXACTLY the player that we thought we were getting... perhaps even BETTER. He's a leader and he gives us a defensive presence in the paint that we REALLY need. I love Rasho but he's not half the player that a healthy JO is.

I also think that "the system" is broken on offense. As others have pointed out, there were NUMEROUS times in last night's game where our only set seemed to be... "clear out one side for a post player, let him go 1-on-1 and get everyone else on the other side of the floor". That is utter BULLSHIT. That's not basketball. I know that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant have made plays like that look brilliant but that isn't how you run an effective offense in the long run. It's something that you MIGHT run in the closing minutes of a game with a star player who has a decided advantage over his defender. Trying to use it all game long is just ridiculous.

Re: Jose's defensive deficiencies.... There is no way that people are going to convince me that Jose is the worst defender in the league at the PG spot. NO WAY lol.... have you guys seen some of the backcourt players in the league right now? ORL is giving regular time to ANTHONY JOHNSON. How old is he??? 50? There's Nash in PHX, who everyone's said is an absolute pylon... Are Beno and Kevin Martin some sort of powerhouse defensive combo in SAC? Ben Gordon playing the 2 in CHI? Kidd and Stack who are friggin' ANCIENT in DAL? Ridnour & Redd in MIL?

Our entire defense is pathetic. And when that's the case EVERY player on the team looks like garbage. That's why you have people screaming at Bosh... screaming at AP... screaming at Jose.... etc, etc...

Until we get things fixed AS A TEAM on both sides of the ball the bitching's going to continue.... particularly when we play very good teams.

At this point I don't see how you possibly be against a coaching change. It's become painfully apparent that either Sam has no clue what he's doing or the players have just plain tuned him out. This is pro sports. You can't keep trading away players to try to appease 1 coach who hasn't won ANYTHING. Ask DAL if they're regretting that Kidd/Harris trade right now and if they shouldn't have just fired Avery instead. People want to bitch and bitch and bitch about how bad this roster is but how do we really know??? We've never seen another coach get a shot at handling out roster!

If it comes down to making a trade it only makes sense to deal Bargs. He's playing great right now and his trade value should be peaking. And he's a natural 4... not a 5... or a 3.... keeping both him AND Bosh while we have holes at other positions is just dumb.

My 2 cents.

Benzo 12-03-2008 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever (Post 86024)

My 2 cents.


More like 14 cents

Benzo 12-03-2008 02:09 PM

I also like the seemingly random capitalization of words.

bjjs 12-03-2008 02:09 PM

lmao.

DVS 12-03-2008 02:12 PM

Well I hope you got out of your little rant and the problem is making a trade on this team now is like creating a hole in one position and filling one up in another. A patch work job won't do it for this team.

Bargs and ROko are like the only two players on this team that is furthest from their ceiling. Trading and/or not developing these players will just leave the team stagnate. I wouldn't for the life of me trade the two players on this team that have any sort of potential.

This season still won't be lost if the development of these two players become better. I'm sorry the aspirations of this team becoming a top 4 seed in the EAst should be erased. Time to get realistic and just hope they make the playoffs and doing embarass themselves when they get there.

Torontosaurus 12-03-2008 02:16 PM

I'm also against trading Bargs at this point now. How do we know he's reached his ceiling? I think all we've seen are baby steps and he's gonna get even better over time.

Also, I don't think you can get much value for Roko right now, so why not keep him and see what develops.

TORaptor4Ever 12-03-2008 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzo (Post 86028)
I also like the seemingly random capitalization of words.

I like capitalization as opposed to bolding or underlining.

Makes me feel special.

TORaptor4Ever 12-03-2008 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torontosaurus (Post 86036)
I'm also against trading Bargs at this point now. How do we know he's reached his ceiling? I think all we've seen are baby steps and he's gonna get even better over time.

Also, I don't think you can get much value for Roko right now, so why not keep him and see what develops.

1) I didn't say that we should trade Roko. And we can't. He's our backup PG. I take him over Solomon every time.

2) I didn't say that Bargs has reached his full potential. Only that this is the highest that his trade value has been SO FAR. If we're looking to make a trade HE's the player that teams are going to be interested in.

TORaptor4Ever 12-03-2008 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVS (Post 86033)
Well I hope you got out of your little rant and the problem is making a trade on this team now is like creating a hole in one position and filling one up in another. A patch work job won't do it for this team.

Bargs and ROko are like the only two players on this team that is furthest from their ceiling. Trading and/or not developing these players will just leave the team stagnate. I wouldn't for the life of me trade the two players on this team that have any sort of potential.

This season still won't be lost if the development of these two players become better. I'm sorry the aspirations of this team becoming a top 4 seed in the EAst should be erased. Time to get realistic and just hope they make the playoffs and don't embarass themselves when they get there.

If that's all we're shooting for then you can kiss Bosh goodbye in 2010. He'll be gone. And I wouldn't blame him one bit.

James Ballswin (Realizar) 12-03-2008 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever (Post 86024)
Trade Jose?

We should've kept TJ and Rasho?

WTH???

Listen.... I appreciate the fact that last night's loss hurt BIG TIME.... and that we've already taken 3-4 of the most painful losses in Raps history this season in the first 17 games.... but I think that some of the stuff that I'm hearing is crazy.

Jose:

The guy is PLAYING HURT right now. I'm 98% sure of this. He's not going whine and he's not going to make excuses but he's too much of a competitor to look this bad without something being seriously wrong. He's #2 in the LEAGUE in assists right now and is always near the top of the league in asst/TO ratio. You just don't give up on a player like that. 90% of the teams in the league would KILL for a floor general like that.

JO:

Was anyone questioning the value of this trade when he was putting up 5 double-doubles in a row? He was EXACTLY the player that we thought we were getting... perhaps even BETTER. He's a leader and he gives us a defensive presence in the paint that we REALLY need. I love Rasho but he's not half the player that a healthy JO is.

I also think that "the system" is broken on offense. As others have pointed out, there were NUMEROUS times in last night's game where our only set seemed to be... "clear out one side for a post player, let him go 1-on-1 and get everyone else on the other side of the floor". That is utter BULLSHIT. That's not basketball. I know that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant have made plays like that look brilliant but that isn't how you run an effective offense in the long run. It's something that you MIGHT run in the closing minutes of a game with a star player who has a decided advantage over his defender. Trying to use it all game long is just ridiculous.

Re: Jose's defensive deficiencies.... There is no way that people are going to convince me that Jose is the worst defender in the league at the PG spot. NO WAY lol.... have you guys seen some of the backcourt players in the league right now? ORL is giving regular time to ANTHONY JOHNSON. How old is he??? 50? There's Nash in PHX, who everyone's said is an absolute pylon... Are Beno and Kevin Martin some sort of powerhouse defensive combo in SAC? Ben Gordon playing the 2 in CHI? Kidd and Stack who are friggin' ANCIENT in DAL? Ridnour & Redd in MIL?

Our entire defense is pathetic. And when that's the case EVERY player on the team looks like garbage. That's why you have people screaming at Bosh... screaming at AP... screaming at Jose.... etc, etc...

Until we get things fixed AS A TEAM on both sides of the ball the bitching's going to continue.... particularly when we play very good teams.

At this point I don't see how you possibly be against a coaching change. It's become painfully apparent that either Sam has no clue what he's doing or the players have just plain tuned him out. This is pro sports. You can't keep trading away players to try to appease 1 coach who hasn't won ANYTHING. Ask DAL if they're regretting that Kidd/Harris trade right now and if they shouldn't have just fired Avery instead. People want to bitch and bitch and bitch about how bad this roster is but how do we really know??? We've never seen another coach get a shot at handling out roster!

If it comes down to making a trade it only makes sense to deal Bargs. He's playing great right now and his trade value should be peaking. And he's a natural 4... not a 5... or a 3.... keeping both him AND Bosh while we have holes at other positions is just dumb.

My 2 cents.

Agree with everything, except making a coaching change at this juncture.

We are still a 0.500 team on pace to make the playoffs. If we replace Smitch, we're lible to piss away the season and much worse.

DVS 12-03-2008 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever (Post 86042)
If that's all we're shooting for then you can kiss Bosh goodbye in 2010. He'll be gone. And I wouldn't blame him one bit.

Well thats all just your opinion. Personally I never thought much of this year. I still think this team is capable of making it to the playoffs only losing in the first round. This will then end the tenure of Sam Mitchell and hopefully enough pieces come into the puzzle for next year.

Its funny but the only way Bosh stays is if Bargnani could become a solid NBA player. IMHO

James Ballswin (Realizar) 12-03-2008 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVS (Post 86046)
Well thats all just your opinion. Personally I never thought much of this year. I still think this team is capable of making it to the playoffs only losing in the first round. This will then end the tenure of Sam Mitchell and hopefully enough pieces come into the puzzle for next year.

Its funny but the only way Bosh stays is if Bargnani could become a solid NBA player. IMHO

By 2010, we'll have a good/very good team with a solid foundation: Jose, Bosh (re-signed), Bargs... and enough cap space to sign a near-max FA (see Joe Johnson), as well as some good quality & cheap role players who want to ride on our train.

Sick, Wicked and Nasty! 12-03-2008 03:00 PM

For the record, there are some that preferred we kept TJ over Jose, but there's no sense in harping on that. JO will be fine... he was just getting into his groove when he got hurt, but he'll be back.

As for the rest, i feel it's mostly on the players right now. They don't seem hungry. You only see a couple of them dive for loose balls, crash the boards and tangle with anyone. Too many of them pull up for the safe jumpshot over asserting themselves physically in the slightest way. They're just soft and too happy about it.

I'm sure there's more the coaching staff can do but short of suiting up themselves and playing it's still up to the players to perform and when none of them are bringing much to the table there isnt' a lot the coaches can do. Games like last night dont' happen because of bad coaching...they happen because one team got on a roll that happens maybe 2 or 3 times a season and the other team had nothing inside they cared to draw from to counter.

I really hope Oneal's statements about the team having to have some serious gut checking talks over the next couple days cause it has to start with them.

TORaptor4Ever 12-03-2008 03:10 PM

You can be the greatest coach in the world... but if you don't have the ability to motivate your players to play hard consistently then you don't have much value.

MikeToronto 12-03-2008 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Ballswin (Realizar) (Post 86045)
Agree with everything, except making a coaching change at this juncture.

We are still a 0.500 team on pace to make the playoffs. If we replace Smitch, we're lible to piss away the season and much worse.

Well, we've pissed away last season, no problem...

James Ballswin (Realizar) 12-03-2008 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeToronto (Post 86066)
Well, we've pissed away last season, no problem...

No we didn't!!! (Garbo pissed away his NBA career and we're still suffering from it).

DVS 12-03-2008 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Ballswin (Realizar) (Post 86051)
By 2010, we'll have a good/very good team with a solid foundation: Jose, Bosh (re-signed), Bargs... and enough cap space to sign a near-max FA (see Joe Johnson), as well as some good quality & cheap role players who want to ride on our train.

Thats an extreme optimist. I wish Joe Johnson would come to Toronto but I highly doubt it. Again we will see what happens

James Ballswin (Realizar) 12-03-2008 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVS (Post 86100)
Thats an extreme optimist. I wish Joe Johnson would come to Toronto but I highly doubt it. Again we will see what happens

Many things will happen until than, but that's the "BC 4-year plan" (2006-2010).

dfunkie1 12-03-2008 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever (Post 86065)
You can be the greatest coach in the world... but if you don't have the ability to motivate your players to play hard consistently then you don't have much value.

i believe thats not a coaching problem when the players don't show up to play. maybe a new coach will fix this for the short term, but the problem is a lot larger than a short term fix.

DVS 12-03-2008 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Ballswin (Realizar) (Post 86106)
Many things will happen until than, but that's the "BC 4-year plan" (2006-2010).

BC has some pretty big balls. He certainly isn't afraid to pull the trigger thats for sure.


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