Embracing Basketball as a Team Sport
Old 02-07-2011, 11:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Raptors Embracing Basketball as a Team Sport

We as raptor fans including myself always embrace the idea of building a team around a superstar Damon\Vince\Bosh who are not team first guys. We ever going to embrace a winning culture in Toronto then we need to start having to build around team guys and I am starting to see that with the current roster:

Point Guard – Jose\Jerryd
Guard – DeMar\Barbosa\Sonny
Small Forward - Kleiza\Julian
Power Forward – Amir\Ed\Joey
Center – Andrea\Reggie\

This group does not stand out to be as very skilled when they play against the elite but they do however put together effort for most nights and they still young team who is growing together.

Men in charge is actually sticking with their plan so far, regardless of what impatient fans and misinformed media trying to call for GM’s\Coaches\Players Head:

1. Impatient Fans \ Media needs to understand that building a team is a process
2. Every time the fans or Media calling for some bodies head it does not mean that men in charge needs to listen to them

a. I have seen media and fan’s calling to fire our GM’s
b. I have read media and fan’s calling to fire our Couch Jay
c. I have read media and fan’s complaining about Jose\Andrea\Amir’s Contract\DeMar\Sonny\Kleiza

Fans and Media should let the men in charge do their job:

One thing that below organizations [Jazz, San Antonio, Boston, and Lakers] all have in common is as follows:

1. Stability at the Top [ GM\Coach\Team Building]
2. Patience with building a team
3. Having a plan and executing at the right time
4. Not being afraid to make a mistake and correcting them to meet short and long term goals


The below questions are being asked a lot in the forms\Media:

1. Why is Andrea not grabbing rebounds and not defending?

a. Does anybody did not see that team seems to play well when he is playing with the like of Reggie\Amir\ED
b. Can somebody name me a center that does the following:
1. Attack the rim through penetration like a guard – ball in his hand
2. Guard the typical center of the NBA
3. Offence get run through him
4. Name me a power forward that plays the finesse game but yet have to guard power guy on the opposite team

2. Jose is too slow and his defense is unreliable, he is lost on most of the defensive assignment

a. Does nobody seems to noticed that he is leading the team in steals
b. Does nobody seems to noticed that he makes everyone around him better
c. He is being a professional who is not taking a day off even after a trade that almost shipped him out


3. DeMar cannot shoot/he does not have the handle/ he is not a good defender

a. Does nobody seems to noticed that he is only 22
b. Does nobody seems to noticed he has improve his game from last year and he seems to get better every game
c. Does nobody seems to noticed that he has progressed


I am glad that Jose, Reggie and Amir sticking up for his team mate Andrea and I would like to see that more from DeMar and Andrea. A true character of a leader is judged when going get though you stick to each other, by standing up for your team mates and let the action speak for itself. I truly believe that winning and losing is not determined by only having enough talent more than that mental toughness leaving it all out in the floor and getting right backup.
I start to see this change through the players we have in our current roster Reggie, Barbosa, Amir, ED, Julian, Jerryd, and Jose which seems to brush on some of our finesse guys DeMar and Andrea.

Last edited by Brack; 02-07-2011 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:33 PM   #2 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brack View Post
We as raptor fans including myself always embrace the idea of building a team around a superstar Damon\Vince\Bosh who are not team first guys. We ever going to embrace a winning culture in Toronto then we need to start having to build around team guys and I am starting to see that with the current roster:

Point Guard – Jose\Jerryd
Guard – DeMar\Barbosa\Sonny
Small Forward - Kleiza\Julian
Power Forward – Amir\Ed\Joey
Center – Andrea\Reggie\

This group does not stand out to be as very skilled when they play against the elite but they do however put together effort for most nights and they still young team who is growing together.

Men in charge is actually sticking with their plan so far, regardless of what impatient fans and misinformed media trying to call for GM’s\Coaches\Players Head:

1. Impatient Fans \ Media needs to understand that building a team is a process
2. Every time the fans or Media calling for some bodies head it does not mean that men in charge needs to listen to them

a. I have seen media and fan’s calling to fire our GM’s
b. I have read media and fan’s calling to fire our Couch Jay
c. I have read media and fan’s complaining about Jose\Andrea\Amir’s Contract\DeMar\Sonny\Kleiza

Fans and Media should let the men in charge do their job:

One thing that below organizations [Jazz, San Antonio, Boston, and Lakers] all have in common is as follows:

1. Stability at the Top [ GM\Coach\Team Building]
2. Patience with building a team
3. Having a plan and executing at the right time
4. Not being afraid to make a mistake and correcting them to meet short and long term goals


The below questions are being asked a lot in the forms\Media:

1. Why is Andrea not grabbing rebounds and not defending?

a. Does anybody did not see that team seems to play well when he is playing with the like of Reggie\Amir\ED
b. Can somebody name me a center that does the following:
1. Attack the rim through penetration like a guard – ball in his hand
2. Guard the typical center of the NBA
3. Offence get run through him
4. Name me a power forward that plays the finesse game but yet have to guard power guy on the opposite team

2. Jose is too slow and his defense is unreliable, he is lost on most of the defensive assignment

a. Does nobody seems to noticed that he is leading the team in steals
b. Does nobody seems to noticed that he makes everyone around him better
c. He is being a professional who is not taking a day off even after a trade that almost shipped him out


3. DeMar cannot shoot/he does not have the handle/ he is not a good defender

a. Does nobody seems to noticed that he is only 22
b. Does nobody seems to noticed he has improve his game from last year and he seems to get better every game
c. Does nobody seems to noticed that he has progressed


I am glad that Jose, Reggie and Amir sticking up for his team mate Andrea and I would like to see that more from DeMar and Andrea. A true character of a leader is judged when going get though you stick to each other, by standing up for your team mates and let the action speak for itself. I truly believe that winning and losing is not determined by only having enough talent more than that mental toughness leaving it all out in the floor and getting right backup.
I start to see this change through the players we have in our current roster Reggie, Barbosa, Amir, ED, Julian, Jerryd, and Jose which seems to brush on some of our finesse guys DeMar and Andrea.
+1

i agree with you completely, other than one point. if we continue on with this lineup, we will never be a top 4 seed in the east and/or contenders. yes we may(probably will) in a couple years make the playoffs but no more than that. we need an injection of talent through the draft.

other than that, i have no complaints and honestly, even in Bargnani who i have complained a great deal about in prior posts is starting to show me effort on the other end of the floor. 6-10 times i see him committing to defence and help defence, and boxing out at the end of the play. say it isnt much but its improvement from his earlier 2-10 times. DD improving nicely, will be a nice starter in the future. same with Ed davis and Amir johnson. Jose, as said before, is crucial to this team. Unless an excellent offer comes by, we should not ship him off for mere draft picks/ role players, say what you want but this team would be lost without jose. plus he has the heart of a champion. bayless i havent seen improve much in terms of awareness but flashes have arised and he looks to be a solid backup pg going forward. BArbo is well, barbo and is a nice vet piece to have coming off your bench.

with some good drafting and wise FA signings, i could see us contending for the east conference title within a five year period easy. like it or not, we have more future than the nets IMHO.
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:15 AM   #3 (permalink)
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You bring up a good point, but you also have to understand the market we have here in Toronto, we are die hard fans that are very drastic, we get rowdy when we see our teams lose. So the players and GM's who are making millions of dollars at least have to show progress as a season progresses, otherwise whats the point of a rebuild. And secondly you cant say anything to the Media, they are doing thier jobs, every team in the NBA deals with the media, you cant stop them from saying it, so what you need to do is just avoid all the bullshit and come up to your own conclusions.

so i understand where you are coming from us, but if your asking the fans and media not to criticize then your living in a dream my friend.
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Old 02-08-2011, 10:02 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brack View Post
We as raptor fans including myself always embrace the idea of building a team around a superstar Damon\Vince\Bosh who are not team first guys. We ever going to embrace a winning culture in Toronto then we need to start having to build around team guys and I am starting to see that with the current roster:
I would say it's not so much of building around 1 guy as it is understanding that having that 'superstar' player makes winning that much easier. Take a look at Miami, Boston and Laker games. How many 'calls' go their way? While it's not right, those teams can get away with a lot. What you ideally need are players who yes, believe in a team culture, but also those one or two player who also believe in the team concept but can be relied upon. Think about your work setting. There is typically, those few people that your boss can rely upon when the work load gets tough. It's not to say that those people are bad, it's just that those people are their 'go to guys'.

Quote:
Point Guard – Jose\Jerryd
Guard – DeMar\Barbosa\Sonny
Small Forward - Kleiza\Julian
Power Forward – Amir\Ed\Joey
Center – Andrea\Reggie\

This group does not stand out to be as very skilled when they play against the elite but they do however put together effort for most nights and they still young team who is growing together.
Effort only gets you so far. Some times, we become enamored with young players and ASSUME they will grow into something more. But what if this is their ceiling? What if that's it? What if they can't get any better? What you need to identify is a few of those guys who ARE long term pieces and are strong enough pieces which to establish a long term culture.

Quote:
Men in charge is actually sticking with their plan so far, regardless of what impatient fans and misinformed media trying to call for GM’s\Coaches\Players Head:

1. Impatient Fans \ Media needs to understand that building a team is a process
How long does the leash need to be? How much time must be given? Under this last regime, we've been waiting 5 years for the establishment of a team. I understand we had Bosh here, but I always have trouble with this one. Everyone says we had to build around Bosh therefore negating building a team? Seriously? Why not build a team WITH Bosh? I understand the cap restrictions, but why not build a team with him in it? It's the coaches job to bring him in offensively so let the coach worry about him.

Quote:
2. Every time the fans or Media calling for some bodies head it does not mean that men in charge needs to listen to them

a. I have seen media and fan’s calling to fire our GM’s
b. I have read media and fan’s calling to fire our Couch Jay
c. I have read media and fan’s complaining about Jose\Andrea\Amir’s Contract\DeMar\Sonny\Kleiza
Isn't that the point of fandom? To take a stake in something and want it be done according to your standards? I'd be far more concerned if our fans WEREN'T doing these things. That means more than likely we've accepted a general apathy regarding our situation and that this team is no longer worth caring about. If we reach that point, then well, we should lose our team.

And yes, it doesn't mean the team needs to listen to the fans (they rarely do). If management ran the team according to fans, we'd have an nba2k11 team here.

Quote:
Fans and Media should let the men in charge do their job:

One thing that below organizations [Jazz, San Antonio, Boston, and Lakers] all have in common is as follows:

1. Stability at the Top [ GM\Coach\Team Building]
2. Patience with building a team
3. Having a plan and executing at the right time
4. Not being afraid to make a mistake and correcting them to meet short and long term goals
Really? Boston? Boston was willing to let go of Doc Rivers prior to the big 3 coming in. Boston was willing to trade Rajon Rondo. Paul Pierce wanted to be traded. Boston had done NOTHING and was a 30 win team at one point. They decided to ABANDON the youth movement by trading Jefferson and Green along with other players for older players. That's not similar to us at all.

The Lakers were close to losing Bryant. They had trades in place. They were a clusterfuck when Rudy Tomjanovich was there. Had it not been for the NBA handing Gasol to the Lakers, I'd be very curious as to what would happen there.

The Jazz have there own problems. They've essentially built that team around Deron Williams and there's LEGIT concern that he's probably leaving in 2012. That team is really built around him. Not Big Al. Not Millsap. It's not interchangeable parts and with Sloan possibly retiring there's some concern there. What the Jazz have done well is they understood for Sloan's offence to work they need a PG and a PF with a mid range game. Upper management always sought those pieces to make the offence work. That plan is likely to change.

Quote:
The below questions are being asked a lot in the forms\Media:

1. Why is Andrea not grabbing rebounds and not defending?

a. Does anybody did not see that team seems to play well when he is playing with the like of Reggie\Amir\ED
We've been seeing him playing with Amir and Ed the last few weeks. He's been pretty brutal on the glass. With Reggie there, all Bargnani did was worry about getting back on offense but his defense was still pretty atrocious. They weren't being masked by anything.

Quote:
b. Can somebody name me a center that does the following:
1. Attack the rim through penetration like a guard – ball in his hand
2. Guard the typical center of the NBA
3. Offence get run through him
4. Name me a power forward that plays the finesse game but yet have to guard power guy on the opposite team
How many times does Andre really attack the rim? How many times does he settle for a jumper? I get he can attack but, my question is, does he really? Yes, occasionally, but it's not enough to get excited about. Also, does the offence get run through him in a traditional manner of a C? No. His positioning is on the wing and if we want to talk about how many teams run their offence through the wing or on the perimeter well, can you name me a team that doesn't do that? And what does playing the finesse game mean? It's a term I hear often, yet rarely know what it means and I've played basketball and watched basketball for years.

Quote:
2. Jose is too slow and his defense is unreliable, he is lost on most of the defensive assignment

a. Does nobody seems to noticed that he is leading the team in steals
Steals does not equate to being a good defender. All steals really mean is you have active hands and are willing to take chances on plays.

Quote:
b. Does nobody seems to noticed that he makes everyone around him better
How? I like Jose, but he's not Steve Nash or Rondo at the PG department where because they can get anywhere where they want to get on the floor they make it easier. Jose is great at getting the team looks around the perimeter but he can't get anywhere he wants to get and then find an open man. That's what separates him from the elite.

Quote:
c. He is being a professional who is not taking a day off even after a trade that almost shipped him out
Who cares?

Quote:
3. DeMar cannot shoot/he does not have the handle/ he is not a good defender

a. Does nobody seems to noticed that he is only 22
b. Does nobody seems to noticed he has improve his game from last year and he seems to get better every game
c. Does nobody seems to noticed that he has progressed
Everyone loves DeMar. In fact, it's really hard to find anti-DeMar ramblings right now. I think a lot of people are overrating him, but that's about it.

Quote:
I am glad that Jose, Reggie and Amir sticking up for his team mate Andrea and I would like to see that more from DeMar and Andrea. A true character of a leader is judged when going get though you stick to each other, by standing up for your team mates and let the action speak for itself. I truly believe that winning and losing is not determined by only having enough talent more than that mental toughness leaving it all out in the floor and getting right backup.
I start to see this change through the players we have in our current roster Reggie, Barbosa, Amir, ED, Julian, Jerryd, and Jose which seems to brush on some of our finesse guys DeMar and Andrea.
I have yet to see that from Andrea. I've always seen Andrea as a stats guy and there's some evidence to prove it. That to me, isn't a leader, it's a guy on your team that's no different than Antoine Walker. A big guy who can shoot and score but has no loyalty to the team concept. And really, the reason, I'd argue we're so 'scrappy' is because alot of these guys are fringe players looking to make a name for themselves and stay in the league. Talent 99.9% wins in the league. When you can combine talent plus heart, then you're building something.
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:32 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Great post above ^^^^^^^^^^
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:42 PM   #6 (permalink)
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agree with Claudius 100%

and i disagree with building a team without a superstar. tell me who's won a championship without a superstar? or even legit contending teams with no superstar.
don't bring up the pistons argument cuz that year they did have superstars (ie Billups mr big shot, ben wallace defensive player of the year) and surrounded by allstars in rip and prince

Last edited by powerfulpanda; 02-08-2011 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:56 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You need superstars. Ask Toronto and Cleveland how they are doing without their star players?

Star players make the game easier for their teammates. Teammates don't have to force their game and do something they don't have the skills to do.

Bargnani is not a building block. After five years in the league, we know what we have. We have a player who has no commitemnt on the defensive end, and who wants to just take take shots. Its time to trade the chucker.
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Old 02-08-2011, 01:54 PM   #8 (permalink)
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don't bring up the pistons argument cuz that year they did have superstars (ie Billups mr big shot, ben wallace defensive player of the year) and surrounded by allstars in rip and prince
i understand that billups and wallace did win those honors, but i think in terms of superstar we are talking about a kobe, lebron, wade, rose, howard, etc.....the pistons we filled with stars yes, second tier during that time, but not truly superstars imo.
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
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There are certain formulas which every championship basketball team needs to succeed. Namely you need 3 guys how can score 18+ with relative consistency, and role players who thrive within a certain element of the game. But mostly you need your roster to believe that it is not about Basketball, ie. not stats, not superstars, not number of touches, not allstar voting. Its about sacrificing as leader allowing everyone to feel pride and ownership. Look at Wilt Chamberland statistical phenom, he won two championship, was traded twice (how many guys avg 38 pts and 28 rbs would ever be on the block today). He was selfish prick who thought more about the stats then his team mates, he was a cancer.

The Raptors don't have enough talent, they haven't even established a core group of role players. You could argue we have a 2nd and 3rd guy(in Bargs and DDR), but we still don't have the primary scorer they need. And lets face it Bargs is not a playoff player at least not on this team.

Realistically I think were 5-6 years away from establishing a playoff team that will get beyond the 1st round. Depending on the new CBA it maybe a few more then that. This is flawed team which has no were near the ability to surge in the next few years like Minny or the Clippers or even the Kings. We really don't even have any tradeable talent.

Beyond that looking at establishing a contender Its all luck. Its finding the right guys who are willing to give up mins. and touches on offense and willing to take pain and exert effort on Defense. So we are long way off, long enough that I wouldn't put a number on it.
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Old 02-09-2011, 12:48 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Thank you for all of your feedback and I welcome the input, however my thought process behind Embracing basketball as a team sport is as follows:

Any development needs to go through its course of life cycle:

Example: Child

1. Needs to learn to crawl before walking
2. Needs to learn to walk before running


Part of finding identify is who we are as an organization and what works for the city of Toronto in the NBA Market:

Who would say no to “Carmelo playing in TDOT with CP3 and D12” – is that realistic?


I would like to see winning culture built through Embracing Basketball as a Team Sport:

a. When is the last time we made to the playoff 5 years in a row or 3 years in a row?
b. When is the last time we made it to the playoff and passing the 2nd round of playoffs 2 years in a row?

These should be our short term goals - in other word “Start to Crawl” before we walk

I believe we could achieve that by building a team instead of per say by embracing a guy “Vince” or “BOSH” which did not achieve these short term goals.

Instead these guys came and they made name for them self and left this city.

We all want superstars but nobody wants to come to Toronto, because we are not known for winning.

The idea that we need superstars to win in this league is not legit, think about this

If our record was 38 wins and 14 losses, I would take that any day over having superstars on this team. We need to embrace winning not individual’s, we need to embrace team by defining roles that suits our team needs rather than players who is playing for stats.

1. You know the dream team of US, whatever happens to that? Did they not get beaten?
2. You know the LA Lakers dynasty, whatever happens to that? Did they not get beaten by [Detroit, San Antonio] which is more of a team.

I am looking forward to feedback!!!!!
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Old 02-09-2011, 01:22 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Toronto the city will do it's best create a superstar regardless of the roster or the record.

The reality of the NBA is that you need great players to be a factor. San Antonio has always had Duncan, Detroit had 5 awesome players. Multiple all-stars.

Superstars aren't a roadblock to embracing team basketball. I think fans in Toronto just want to see winning, I'm sure they're ready to any type of basketball that gets them results.

Last edited by bjjs; 02-09-2011 at 01:26 AM.
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Old 02-09-2011, 02:24 AM   #12 (permalink)
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ya'll need bigs. Can't win if you can't rebound and defend. Draft as many Centers as you can. You guys haven't been the same since Evans got hurt.
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Old 02-09-2011, 02:37 AM   #13 (permalink)
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If this team is the same next year, and Colangelo decides to stay with this group and let them 'grow', I will not watch the Raptors again.

Its been 16 years people. How we're still here supporting this bullshit speaks to us and not the management or the team.

Enough is enough already. Win some fucking games and give us the playoff excitement we've desired for forever or just fucking sell the team to an owner like Mark Cuban who will actually strive to make it a winner.
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:31 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Team definately needs a new couch.

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Old 02-09-2011, 11:44 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brack View Post
Thank you for all of your feedback and I welcome the input, however my thought process behind Embracing basketball as a team sport is as follows:

Any development needs to go through its course of life cycle:

Example: Child

1. Needs to learn to crawl before walking
2. Needs to learn to walk before running


Part of finding identify is who we are as an organization and what works for the city of Toronto in the NBA Market:

Who would say no to “Carmelo playing in TDOT with CP3 and D12” – is that realistic?


I would like to see winning culture built through Embracing Basketball as a Team Sport:

a. When is the last time we made to the playoff 5 years in a row or 3 years in a row?
b. When is the last time we made it to the playoff and passing the 2nd round of playoffs 2 years in a row?

These should be our short term goals - in other word “Start to Crawl” before we walk

I believe we could achieve that by building a team instead of per say by embracing a guy “Vince” or “BOSH” which did not achieve these short term goals.

Instead these guys came and they made name for them self and left this city.

We all want superstars but nobody wants to come to Toronto, because we are not known for winning.

The idea that we need superstars to win in this league is not legit, think about this

If our record was 38 wins and 14 losses, I would take that any day over having superstars on this team. We need to embrace winning not individual’s, we need to embrace team by defining roles that suits our team needs rather than players who is playing for stats.

1. You know the dream team of US, whatever happens to that? Did they not get beaten?
2. You know the LA Lakers dynasty, whatever happens to that? Did they not get beaten by [Detroit, San Antonio] which is more of a team.

I am looking forward to feedback!!!!!
ur idea of a embracing a "team" rather then have a star and surround him, that could get us in the playoffs because the east is so weak at the bottom. heck we were in the hunt before we went on that 13 game losing streak. but no way would that get us to the second round.
look at the playoff teams and then look at the potential 2nd rounders. how many of those teams follow ur blueprint? none i would say
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