Ed Davis isn't getting a fair shot - Page 4
Old 11-13-2012, 02:38 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I think Bargnani is inefficient as a main option. He was pretty efficient when taking 15 shots max. I could really live with him coming off the bench. He really gives two sides of the coin as a starter - going through a good efficient stretch for about half the game, and then being inefficient for about half the game. If he developed any kind of a passing game or helped the team noticeably in other areas, then there would not be much of an issue.
He wasn't the main option last night so ummm.... problem solved. Let's now concern ourselves with something more deserving.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:40 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Did you see who was making those shots? Are you sure we can rely on those same shots going in every night? It sure as heck wasn't Davis making those shots. I think you're giving too much credit to Ed.
If Lowry and Kleiza are starting I'd argue that Bargs becomes expendable.

The 2 of them would be more than capable of making up for his numbers.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:46 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Did you see who was making those shots? Are you sure we can rely on those same shots going in every night? It sure as heck wasn't Davis making those shots. I think you're giving too much credit to Ed.
Forget about just singling out Ed. I know that's hard for you. But I was discussing the defense of the team as a whole. Ed was a part of it when it looked passable. He was not in when it failed constantly. And Casey would appear to have noticed as much since he subbed Davis in for defense in the final minute of regulation.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:48 PM   #64 (permalink)
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If Lowry and Kleiza are starting I'd argue that Bargs becomes expendable.

The 2 of them would be more than capable of making up for his numbers.
I'm not sure about Kleiza long term, but presumably there would be something coming back in return for an expendable Mago.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:48 PM   #65 (permalink)
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If Lowry and Kleiza are starting I'd argue that Bargs becomes expendable.

The 2 of them would be more than capable of making up for his numbers.
It's fair to argue that, though it's also fair to suggest that we really don't know what we can consistently expect from Kleiza and also that a frontcourt of Ed and Amir looks extremely anemic offensively too. Argue away, I won't complain. I'm not saying Bargnani isn't expendable, but I think there is way too much hatred and subjective analysis regarding his stats and play that often ignores some of his positive contributions.

Because he was a first overall pick means absolutely nothing at this point but yet he's still chastized for it. That's hate, pure and unharnessed. For fucks sake, we could have been stuck with Ammo or Tyrus. If only we had taken Aldridge and traded that turncoat Bosh before he bailed!

Last sentence was just for effect!
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:51 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Forget about just singling out Ed. I know that's hard for you. But I was discussing the defense of the team as a whole. Ed was a part of it when it looked passable. He was not in when it failed constantly. And Casey would appear to have noticed as much since he subbed Davis in for defense in the final minute of regulation.
Fair enough, but I was just referring to your post regarding Ed... so yeah, I can not single him out if it appeases you. My point was that John Lucas hit some shots that he's not been hitting, LK hit some shots that have not been there.... even DD hit a lot of shots that he's not been hitting. SO the argument that the defensive difference is enough to offset losing an offensive option can be mitigated by perspective.

Carry on.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:53 PM   #67 (permalink)
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It's fair to argue that, though it's also fair to suggest that we really don't know what we can consistently expect from Kleiza and also that a frontcourt of Ed and Amir looks extremely anemic offensively too. Argue away, I won't complain. I'm not saying Bargnani isn't expendable, but I think there is way too much hatred and subjective analysis regarding his stats and play that often ignores some of his positive contributions.
Because he was a first overall pick means absolutely nothing at this point but yet he's still chastized for it. That's hate, pure and unharnessed. For fucks sake, we could have been stuck with Ammo or Tyrus. If only we had taken Aldridge and traded that turncoat Bosh before he bailed!

Last sentence was just for effect!
No one cares about that pick thing anymore. I haven't seen people write about that lately.

So, one makes analysis. I've made a lot of analysis and shown evidence - o rating, drating, winshares/48 minutes, his %ages since Bosh left, net points/ 100 possessions, etc. Yet many people probably assume I'm a hater because I actually look at stats, etc.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:05 PM   #68 (permalink)
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No one cares about that pick thing anymore. I haven't seen people write about that lately.

So, one makes analysis. I've made a lot of analysis and shown evidence - o rating, drating, winshares/48 minutes, his %ages since Bosh left, net points/ 100 possessions, etc. Yet many people probably assume I'm a hater because I actually look at stats, etc.
You're going to get lumped in sometimes, it happens man.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:07 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Fair enough, but I was just referring to your post regarding Ed... so yeah, I can not single him out if it appeases you. My point was that John Lucas hit some shots that he's not been hitting, LK hit some shots that have not been there.... even DD hit a lot of shots that he's not been hitting. SO the argument that the defensive difference is enough to offset losing an offensive option can be mitigated by perspective.

Carry on.
Ah perspective. Watching baskets being traded, with far too many of the opposing points amounting to easy points, for year upon year, has offered me the perspective that defending is maybe a better place to start. Yes, offensive options are needed. But they also need to be placed within the context of the team. A Derozan that can score and get to the line does not interest me half as much as a Derozan that can survey the floor and make solid decisions, whether it be for himself or for others on the court. A Lowry that breaks down defenses and finds ways for himself or others to score when there appears to be nothing there is more than just an offensive option. Look at the great scoring option, the Mamba, and you might notice that when he is seen as the big scoring option he does not get the same results for his team as when he is working within a well-defined team framework. It's a team game that has always rewarded unselfish play over individual play when it comes to winning. Of course this team would not go too far regardless without more talent, but it would have a chance to be getting enough results as to be clearly headed in the right direction. At the moment they are in danger of taking a big step backwards if the proper issues are not addressed.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:09 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Back to Ed - when he was in the game last night the team stopped trading baskets. The scoring was down some, but Utah's ridiculous shooting percentage dropped noticeably. There was no longer the need for everyone to sag and help in the interior and that changed things up enough for the Jazz that they couldn't count on so many easy points. Almost as soon as he left the game, that changed. The easy baskets came back for them, and the shooting percentages shot right back up. Over any length of time that is going to be hard to beat.
I disagree that Ed Davis was the reason we stopped trading baskets. Bargnani didn't play any of the 4th quarter until the 4 minute mark. We had a decent lead and Casey figured he didn't need to bring back AB so soon. Then the lead starting dwindeling because they coudn't make a shot and the offence was stagnant, so he brought him back in, when our lead was around 3-4?

Not entirely sure because it's hard to remember the exact score.

But to suggest Ed Davis was the reason we stopped trading baskets is a little over the top. Because you are then suggesting that it was because of Bargnani that we were trading baskets. I watched the same game you watched, and Bargnani in regulation looked alright defensively, he didn't allow Milsap or the other guy he was covering to get anything easy. His 1 on 1 defence was pretty good, and had a couple blocks.

The only time I cringed watching him lumber back in transition or have lapses in defensive coverage was during the overtime periods, which is understandable considering he's a terrible athlete.

M williams 31:53 playing time
Millsap 43:40
Bargnani 48:44

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Old 11-13-2012, 03:29 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I disagree that Ed Davis was the reason we stopped trading baskets. Bargnani didn't play any of the 4th quarter until the 4 minute mark. We had a decent lead and Casey figured he didn't need to bring back AB so soon. Then the lead starting dwindeling because they coudn't make a shot and the offence was stagnant, so he brought him back in, when our lead was around 3-4?

Not entirely sure because it's hard to remember the exact score.

But to suggest Ed Davis was the reason we stopped trading baskets is a little over the top. Because you are then suggesting that it was because of Bargnani that we were trading baskets. I watched the same game you watched, and Bargnani in regulation looked alright defensively, he didn't allow Milsap or the other guy he was covering to get anything easy. His 1 on 1 defence was pretty good, and had a couple blocks.
You can disagree that Ed was the reason, but as a team, they stopped trading baskets. And though the offense had some dry spells, Ed was providing a number of second chances. Once Bargnani was in he got swarmed and forced a couple shots that allowed for easy transition points. It wasn't all on Bargnani, as Jose ran out of gas and gave up easy points as well. But to my eyes, a well-disciplined offense with Ed in the mix offers a much better chance of the Raptors being the hammer rather than the nail. The 11 point lead was a testament to that. And some of that was given up by sloppy play before Andrea came in. But Utah also looked to score easy baskets in the paint and in transition as soon as Andrea came into the game. The play before Ed left, he blocked a shot. Utah's comfort level was noticeably improved when he left. Maybe not necessarily due to Andrea, as much as there was a very different energy for them to face upon Ed's absence. Teamwise, it was a very different picture.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:52 PM   #72 (permalink)
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It's fair to argue that, though it's also fair to suggest that we really don't know what we can consistently expect from Kleiza and also that a frontcourt of Ed and Amir looks extremely anemic offensively too. Argue away, I won't complain. I'm not saying Bargnani isn't expendable, but I think there is way too much hatred and subjective analysis regarding his stats and play that often ignores some of his positive contributions.

Because he was a first overall pick means absolutely nothing at this point but yet he's still chastized for it. That's hate, pure and unharnessed. For fucks sake, we could have been stuck with Ammo or Tyrus. If only we had taken Aldridge and traded that turncoat Bosh before he bailed!

Last sentence was just for effect!
I would take my chances with Kleiza, DD and Lowry carrying the bulk of the scoring load and I actually think that we'd be a better team defensively with our 4 and 5 men actually battling under the boards instead of floating around the perimeter.

And as jeff said... presumably we'd get something of value back for Bargs which might help there too.

*sigh* I'd gladly trade the money that we spent on Fields and Bargs for Bosh right now.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:12 PM   #73 (permalink)
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As Jeff said?
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:24 PM   #74 (permalink)
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GOOD JOB ED. STARTED TONIGHT.

FINISHED WITH 24 PTS 12 REB.

:bosh:
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:25 PM   #75 (permalink)
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D12 WHO D32 MORE LIKE IT
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:19 PM   #76 (permalink)
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D12 WHO D32 MORE LIKE IT
minus 1000000000000000000000 pounds
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:44 PM   #77 (permalink)
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