Doug Smith: Jose's Upside Greater Than Ford's
Old 06-06-2008, 11:12 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Doug Smith: Jose's Upside Greater Than Ford's

Bias aside, would you agree with Doug comments?

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A: No, you’re not the only one at all, just keep reading here and the blog regularly and you’ll find more than your fair share of people who think T.J. is the answer.

I did, too. For a while.

But, personally, I think Calderon’s upside is greater. And, as I’ve said a billion times, the perfect scenario would be for T.J. to accept the role of a tempo-changing backup but he’s not nearly ready to accept that, as evidence by the way he handled himself in that role in the latter stages of last season. Watching him pout and try to take over games single-handedly coming off the bench was enough for anyone to realize that he’d be fine in a two-guard situation as long as he was No. 1.

Calderon has his flaws – and so does Ford – but I think when their careers are over, Calderon’s team is going to win more and he’s going to be considered a better player.

But you are certainly not alone in your assessment. And I could be entirely wrong. But I don’t think I am.
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Old 06-06-2008, 11:23 AM   #2 (permalink)
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he explained it pretty well.
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Old 06-06-2008, 11:32 AM   #3 (permalink)
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yep.

I been saying it forever.

It's not that Ford is bad, he's not, he's awesome, its just that when ya look at it from an 82 game angle, Calderon puts your team in abetter place, and wins you more games. Maybe not the "put your team on your back, score 25 in the second half" type, but you know what, thats an anomaly in the season, you need steady.
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Old 06-06-2008, 02:13 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yep, i believe that Calderon is a team first player who has the ability to have career Double Double numbers and who shoots the ball extremly efficiantly from the field and from the line.Where as Ford is mostly one dementional,which is sad with his ability and quicks!BC/Sam know this and eventually so will Fords next GM/Coach!
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Old 06-06-2008, 02:40 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
Ford is mostly one dementional
you're subsconsciousness got the better of you this time ...
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Old 06-06-2008, 03:29 PM   #6 (permalink)
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TJ is hardly one-dimensional. And he's only played on playoff teams. And when he's been injured he has always been sorely missed. And he will be appreciated for what he can bring to his next team.

I've been saying for a long time that they both actually do the same things when they both play at their best. If would give the edge to Jose in the long-run in terms of understanding how to orchestrate wins by using his teammates well throughout a game. And I would give TJ the edge in terms of being able to orchestrate easy baskets for his teammates when those opportunities arise. Mentally, one guy is big-picture, long-view, and one guy is all about getting it done now. TJ is the guy I'd want on a team that isn't quite prime-time. Jose could be able to be that much better on a team that is on the verge of being elite. But he still hasn't really proven himself through a full season, or as a playoff performer as of yet, aside from playing for his national team which is a little different, but does give a hint at what he can do with a deep, well-balanced team.
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Old 06-06-2008, 05:31 PM   #7 (permalink)
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TJ is hardly one-dimensional. And he's only played on playoff teams. And when he's been injured he has always been sorely missed. And he will be appreciated for what he can bring to his next team.

I've been saying for a long time that they both actually do the same things when they both play at their best. If would give the edge to Jose in the long-run in terms of understanding how to orchestrate wins by using his teammates well throughout a game. And I would give TJ the edge in terms of being able to orchestrate easy baskets for his teammates when those opportunities arise. Mentally, one guy is big-picture, long-view, and one guy is all about getting it done now. TJ is the guy I'd want on a team that isn't quite prime-time. Jose could be able to be that much better on a team that is on the verge of being elite. But he still hasn't really proven himself through a full season, or as a playoff performer as of yet, aside from playing for his national team which is a little different, but does give a hint at what he can do with a deep, well-balanced team.
Well i just see him turning the ball over way more than Calderon,shoot for a worse percentage,and plays out of control and to say the least he's selfish and injury prone.I like Ford even though it doesn't show but IMO we are way better off with Jose than TJ.

FG% 3P% FT% TO

TJ 46% 29% 88% 2.00

Jose 51% 42% 91% 1.20
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Old 06-06-2008, 06:44 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Been saying this for a while, you can drool over TJ's speed and talent all you want, but half of "upside" is having the mental capabilities to be one of the best at your position in the league, and I don't think TJ has it.
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Old 06-06-2008, 07:01 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Been saying this for a while, you can drool over TJ's speed and talent all you want, but half of "upside" is having the mental capabilities to be one of the best at your position in the league, and I don't think TJ has it.

I couldn't agree more.Sometimes speed is great but T.J tries too much to use that speed and is more out of control than anything most of the time. It's simple for me, Calderon is more capable of being a double double kind of PG that doesn't turn the ball over and plays a controlled brand of basketball making his teammates better in the process.
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Old 06-06-2008, 08:27 PM   #10 (permalink)
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is this suppose to be new to us :S
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Old 06-07-2008, 04:54 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Wow - TJ turns the ball over 2 times per game. I guess he is one-dimensional.

I find it funny how his assists numbers aren't shown.

Liking Jose more is no problem for me, but completely discounting what TJ brings to games is just way too typical, and unnecessary. He is one of the best at his position statistically, and for a young player he has fine mental capabailities, and makes his teammates better. He has every possibility of becoming an All-Star, injuries aside. As does Jose. And at the end of the day I'm sick of all the infatuation with the comparisons and would be just as happy to see them both traded as I would be with anything else.
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Old 06-08-2008, 07:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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When Ford is healthy, and playing his game he runs this offense better than Jose without a doubt. Ford breaks down the defender, dribble penetrates, pulls a help defender, and kicks it out...please people don't forget his 14PPG and 8A last season...Which one is better, yes i agree Jose is...but its marginal at best...with injury concerns probably the reason Jose takes it,
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Old 06-08-2008, 10:00 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Why'd Colangelo sign him to such a contract...He didn't find out Calderon back then yet but still. 3 years 8M?
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Old 06-08-2008, 10:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
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When Ford is healthy, and playing his game he runs this offense better than Jose without a doubt. Ford breaks down the defender, dribble penetrates, pulls a help defender, and kicks it out...please people don't forget his 14PPG and 8A last season...Which one is better, yes i agree Jose is...but its marginal at best...with injury concerns probably the reason Jose takes it,
I think that Jose runs the offence better. He shoots for a better percentage,doesn't turn the ball over, and is a team first guy.The only reason T.J had 14PPG in 06-07 season is because he took alot of shots and yet he shot under 30% from three!When you average 14 and only shoot 30% from three as a PG to me that means he takes too many shots. And when he goes inside he's often out of control and turns the ball over. I just find that when Jose is in the game the offence flows better with more ball movement.
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Old 06-08-2008, 10:53 PM   #15 (permalink)
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tj didn't have a knack of taking bad shots. i agree that at time he looked to score himself over-looking an easy basket, but even then it wasn't a problem. you guys just bitch because you like calderon. you know it's not hard to admit that you're a fan of one without having to make shit up about the other to make a case for it.

i like both Calderon and ford. what Calderon showed me when ford was injured makes me want to have jose as our starting point guard. who wouldn't, he played out of his league. all-in-all, i'd prefer having both of them giving us 48 minutes of solid basketball. you guys are gonna miss it. bitch away while you can...
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:35 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by •LX• View Post
Wow - TJ turns the ball over 2 times per game. I guess he is one-dimensional.

I find it funny how his assists numbers aren't shown.
Quoting TJ's 2 turnovers a game is a low blow, as far as turnovers go he's about average for a solid PG in the NBA. He just compares poorly to Calderon's otherworldly assist to turnover ratio.

As for Assists:

TJ Ford: 23 mins per game, 6.1 assists, 2.0 turnovers
Calderon: 30 mins per game, 8.3 assists, 1.2 turnovers

As for the shooting, TJ's become an OK one. My big problem is WHEN he decides to shoot, or more precisely when he shoots too much.

I watched many games where in the 4th quarter, TJ ford took well over 50% of the team's shots when he was on the floor. He scored on some shots, missed others, but the recurring theme was that we did not get offensive rebounds, he shot early, he didn't get the offense going, ball movement was nonexistant and he virtually ignored the other 4 players on the floor. Most of his shots came from the perimeter.

When the Raptors succeed, we move the ball and at least try to work the ball inside. When we fail, were' a perimeter, one-shot-and-done jump shooting team.
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Old 06-11-2008, 05:11 PM   #17 (permalink)
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As LX has been noting, people are quick to forget about TJ's contributions when discussing his downsides. Keep in mind that TJ remains basically the only Raptor besides Bosh who can consistently create his own shot. None of the other Raptors guards (or 3's for that matter) have the ability to consistently take a defender off the dribble and get a good shot when being played one on one. Calderon isn't explosive enough, AP is too slow, Moon isn't a solid ballhandler, Delfino combines some combination of the three...basically, they all need screens to get to the bucket. Even Bosh is less capable of creating a bucket than TJ, as defenses key on him, specifically in key situations.

It's not a coincidence that TJ tends to be the go to guy in close 4th quarter games. That is by design, it's not TJ deciding tot ry and take over by himself. It's because once Bosh's option is cut off, the Raps (as usual) fall apart offensively and need someone to go one on one to create their own bucket. TJ was very capable of that.

Now, do I think he's better than Calderon? No. Upside, in my opinion, is the wrong word to use though. TJ has more upside, as were he to put it all together he could be a threat in the way Calderon isn't. Calderon is more consistent, and is a better fit within a team-oriented, ball movement offense like the Raps. However, Calderon is not capable of taking over a game by himself. He's steady, but rarely spectacular. TJ is the opposite.

So while I do think the Raps need to get TJ out, and have Calderon man the point for the forseeable future, they need to be cautious in trading away their only go to scorer. Thats why dealing him for Maggete seems so attractive, because Maggete is the wing scorer we could use.

Regardless, if TJ is traded, I would to see a capable scoring guard/swing brought in via that trade or via the draft.
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Old 06-11-2008, 05:59 PM   #18 (permalink)
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As LX has been noting, people are quick to forget about TJ's contributions when discussing his downsides. Keep in mind that TJ remains basically the only Raptor besides Bosh who can consistently create his own shot. None of the other Raptors guards (or 3's for that matter) have the ability to consistently take a defender off the dribble and get a good shot when being played one on one. Calderon isn't explosive enough, AP is too slow, Moon isn't a solid ballhandler, Delfino combines some combination of the three...basically, they all need screens to get to the bucket. Even Bosh is less capable of creating a bucket than TJ, as defenses key on him, specifically in key situations.

It's not a coincidence that TJ tends to be the go to guy in close 4th quarter games. That is by design, it's not TJ deciding tot ry and take over by himself. It's because once Bosh's option is cut off, the Raps (as usual) fall apart offensively and need someone to go one on one to create their own bucket. TJ was very capable of that.

Now, do I think he's better than Calderon? No. Upside, in my opinion, is the wrong word to use though. TJ has more upside, as were he to put it all together he could be a threat in the way Calderon isn't. Calderon is more consistent, and is a better fit within a team-oriented, ball movement offense like the Raps. However, Calderon is not capable of taking over a game by himself. He's steady, but rarely spectacular. TJ is the opposite.

So while I do think the Raps need to get TJ out, and have Calderon man the point for the forseeable future, they need to be cautious in trading away their only go to scorer. Thats why dealing him for Maggete seems so attractive, because Maggete is the wing scorer we could use.

Regardless, if TJ is traded, I would to see a capable scoring guard/swing brought in via that trade or via the draft.
I agree for the most part, except that calde cant take over a game. Remember how clutch he was right before the All-Star break. Remember that game againts boston. He can dominate. A guy that can shoot so well and pass so well will always be dominating cause even if he cant score, he can pass to someone that probably will.
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Old 06-11-2008, 06:19 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I agree for the most part, except that calde cant take over a game. Remember how clutch he was right before the All-Star break. Remember that game againts boston. He can dominate. A guy that can shoot so well and pass so well will always be dominating cause even if he cant score, he can pass to someone that probably will.

You're right in the sense that he can indeed be the dominating force in a game. However, its more difficult for him because he depends on others to get it done. It's rare that Jose will take on a defender one on one and be able to beat him for an open shot. Thats why he comes off alot of screens and distributes really well, because he (rightly) rarely even bothers to try straight up beat his man.

Is this a necessary skill? Not at all. But in my opinion, before Ford becomes totally expendable, Sam needs to figure out a way to get Calderon more good looks. Because whether you liked TJ or not, the ball came to him when the Raps needed 2, and it was up to him what to do with it. At worst, he would drive for his little floater.

We all know what the worst case scenario is for Calderon handling the ball at the end of the game. High screen (because he needs it) - pass immediately without drawing the defense or beginning to drive - Bosh clangs from 20+ feet - playoff loss.

Now sure, next season Jose's game may (should) have improved in that regard, and yes, 7 or 8 times out of 10 that play is going to be run more effectively by both Jose and Bosh. But the fact remains that in that situation, TJ likely would've gone to the bucket, resulting in a short floater (which was indisputably effective) or a more open shot on a kickout.

I still love Jose...but Im just sayin, you do lose something in getting rid of TJ.
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Old 06-11-2008, 06:25 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I love Tj too, but like most people think, Calde is just better for a team like the raptors.
But yeah, I hope Calde searches to score a little more next year. I think a 15 points, 10 assist would be ideal for a player like him.
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