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Raptors Forum | Toronto Raptors Forums & Message Boards - Does Jose get amnestied/traded no matter what?
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-   -   Does Jose get amnestied/traded no matter what? (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/does-jose-get-amnestied-traded-no-matter-what-21878.html)

LX 01-14-2012 11:28 PM

2 points.

Tonight Gary Forbes was an improvement.

fk24 01-14-2012 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 600701)
2 points.

Tonight Gary Forbes was an improvement.

I don't really care about Jose's numbers. I look at how is he setting up Derozan and Davis and to be honest he's horrible.

He simply passes only to certain guys on the court. Magloire Barbosa and sometimes Amir.

LX 01-14-2012 11:34 PM


Beesh 01-15-2012 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 600704)

haha this was gangster haha ata boy caldy

Acie 01-15-2012 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acie (Post 600365)
Who are these players we've held on too long to and divested ourselves of two years later?


Admiral 01-15-2012 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fk24 (Post 600703)
I don't really care about Jose's numbers. I look at how is he setting up Derozan and Davis and to be honest he's horrible.

He simply passes only to certain guys on the court. Magloire Barbosa and sometimes Amir.

thats because calderon only runs plays set up by the coach, so you can't blame him about setting up derozan and davis, also demar and davis don't do a good job of getting themselves into the right positions and freeing themselves up, especially davis, and calderon doesn't pass to barbosa so much as barbosa takes the ball from everyone and doesn't pass out

but calderon does have a problem with playing on the fly, he is strictly a PG that runs set plays, he is a no risk PG, and you know the phrase "No Risk, No Reward"

moremilk 01-15-2012 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy (Post 600310)
there was no tongue in cheek re Conley, i simply think Conley is a superior player and I'd take him over Calderon.

everyone of us uses 'tiers' in their minds. it happens more along the lines of "clearly better", "maybe, I'd have to think about it", "worse", etc.
you can achieve the same with numerical tiers if you like. But in the end, tier-ing is just a part of thought process when you rank players.

anyway, there are at least 15 guys whom I'd put above Calderon without a "maybe". You didn't mention all of them in your post btw, Jrue Holiday is one, Stephen Curry, Jameer Nelson, but there might be a few more.




or i can create a few more tiers.
what if i think Rondo is clearly better than Holiday who is clearly better than Conley who is clearly better than Calderon? in your system, there are no tiers at all in between Rondo and Calderon.



well there was a guy in this forum just days ago who said he wouldn't trade Calderon unless there's a top 5 point guard coming back in trade.

Personally, I see more point in ranking players based on how I see their value, rather than try to build a try to please everyone by grouping Calderon with both superior and inferior players.



well Conley shoots very well (except this month), he has good lateral quickness, and he's one of the better defensive points. I don't see any team where I'd rather have Calderon than Conley. So, I place Conley higher.
And we could do this with Holiday or Felton, etc.

I just don't see the point to artificially "group" them together with Calderon when I'm convinced that they are more valuable to a team.
If someone disagrees, so be it. I can't say "Conley has similar value as Calderon", when I don't think he does. ;)

too many tiers defeat the purpose, this exercise only works well if you try to generalize as much as possible without becoming irrelevant. For this system to work you have to live with a rule like this: if player A is not CLEARLY better than player B, than you will consider both equal. The advantage is that it's a lot easier to agree that player A is clearly better than player B. Most people will agree that paul is better than curry and curry better than holiday, but you will not reach any consensus in rondo vs curry and holiday vs conley.

I also don't think nelson or conley are clearly superior to jose. Jose is a better shooter than both of those players and has better court vision. Nelson and conley might be better scorers and definitely are better defenders. However, Jose has better PG skills and I would argue he would be more valuable to Orlando and Memphis than those two.

ValanciunasFanboy 01-15-2012 09:57 PM

Quote:

For this system to work you have to live with a rule like this: if player A is not CLEARLY better than player B, than you will consider both equal
Well I didn't use caps but that's what i said.
"At least 15, no maybies."
That does not mean there are no players who aren't CLEARLY better. Like, I'd have to think if Andre Miller is better than Calderon. Likely he is. But he's a clearly more limited player than Conley and it's not a home run versus Calderon. It would depend on the team and system. So I don't put him into the 15.

Quote:

too many tiers defeat the purpose, this exercise only works well if you try to generalize as much as possible without becoming irrelevant.
The purpose is comparing players' value in game.
If I am forced to group two players together when I think one is clearly better --- because I'm using a system that can only differentiate between Rondo level and Chalmers level, and everything in between is one tier --- then the system itself defeats its purpose.

Look, you want me to group Conley and Calderon together because you think they have similar value. I don't. I don't think it's close. And it's not a system or logical issue. It's a factual disagreement.
You want me to group them together because they are both worse than Rondo but better than Chalmers. What purpose does that serve? I'm struggling to find one.
You can use tiers. Or not. But either way, you can't lose sight of the purpose which is comparing quality in a sensible way.

ValanciunasFanboy 01-15-2012 10:00 PM

off topic: why can't i access the thread "Why has DD never been tried at the 3?"?
I see it on the home page but it says I haven't got the privileges. Is it a mods only thread?

carp 01-15-2012 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy (Post 600936)
off topic: why can't i access the thread "Why has DD never been tried at the 3?"?
I see it on the home page but it says I haven't got the privileges. Is it a mods only thread?

nah, I can't get to it from that page either... it's a bug... or so I like to think.... you gotta go to the Raptors page to view it.

LX 01-15-2012 11:33 PM

It sent you to a mods only page. The home page sends people to random threads regularly. It's part of the RF charm?

ValanciunasFanboy 01-15-2012 11:53 PM

oh. i noticed the random thread part but i assumed it happens everywhere and i used to just pass on those threads after some tries.
i'll have to start browsing instead of just relying on home page.

TORaptor4Ever 01-16-2012 12:22 AM

SJ.... I won't quote your post (#70) since it's so damn long lol... but that really was a great piece of analysis. Kudos. Pretty much a "how to" when it comes to PGs.

Acie 01-16-2012 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acie (Post 600365)
Who are these players we've held on too long to and divested ourselves of two years later?

http://troll.me/images/y-u-no/renji-...-answer-me.jpg

Superjudge 01-16-2012 11:45 PM

heh..

moremilk 01-17-2012 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy (Post 600934)
Well I didn't use caps but that's what i said.
"At least 15, no maybies."
That does not mean there are no players who aren't CLEARLY better. Like, I'd have to think if Andre Miller is better than Calderon. Likely he is. But he's a clearly more limited player than Conley and it's not a home run versus Calderon. It would depend on the team and system. So I don't put him into the 15.



The purpose is comparing players' value in game.
If I am forced to group two players together when I think one is clearly better --- because I'm using a system that can only differentiate between Rondo level and Chalmers level, and everything in between is one tier --- then the system itself defeats its purpose.

Look, you want me to group Conley and Calderon together because you think they have similar value. I don't. I don't think it's close. And it's not a system or logical issue. It's a factual disagreement.
You want me to group them together because they are both worse than Rondo but better than Chalmers. What purpose does that serve? I'm struggling to find one.
You can use tiers. Or not. But either way, you can't lose sight of the purpose which is comparing quality in a sensible way.

I get that, but again, if you want to have the slightest hope of getting some kind of agreement between 10+ people on this topic, it's this approach. Ultimately, it's really impossible to rank players accurately because there are so many variables like age, salary , contract length, injury risks, how well a player can fit a system and so on. Put andre miller on a half court team and pair him with a bunch of slow, old players and he's useless etc

I don't want to lump conley and calderon because I think they have equal value. I just think you need to make some compromises in order to get more people on board with however you're ranking these players.

ValanciunasFanboy 01-17-2012 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moremilk (Post 601233)
Ultimately, it's really impossible to rank players accurately because there are so many variables like age, salary , contract length, injury risks, how well a player can fit a system and so on.

sure. we aren't talking trade value here though. otherwise obviously Nash is nowhere in the same 'tier' as Rose. Or Kidd and John Wall.
And even Calderon being in a higher 'tier' than Chalmers is hardly true in that case. I don't think Miami would give Chalmers for Calderon when you consider all those variables. Their on the court impact isn't far apart WHEN both are healthy, before you account for huge difference in health, age, salary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moremilk (Post 601233)
I get that, but again, if you want to have the slightest hope of getting some kind of agreement between 10+ people on this topic, it's this approach.

<...>
I just think you need to make some compromises in order to get more people on board with however you're ranking these players.

fair enough. i simply don't think that getting a ranking more liked by fans (esp fans in a single team's forum) necessarily makes it better.

Acie 01-17-2012 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acie (Post 600365)
Who are these players we've held on too long to and divested ourselves of two years later?


Superjudge 01-17-2012 11:58 AM

Guys, try to understand something about building teams. Each team has it's own separate set of needs, those needs are based upon a lot of things. My guess, is that the differences in these guards are smaller than you might think, but the strengths and weaknesses, ages, contracts, styles, etc are all unique. Teams usually have to try to choose not the best guard so to say, but the best fit for the plan they have in place to move forward. There may be a time when a team really is desperate for some size up front, so they might pass on a PG for a big. If they can grab a top level PG and somehow turn him into a big they do that, but at the end of the day, when you look at it in that light, it isn't always the guy you think that gets selected for a specific team.

The only time this isn't true is for teams that have cash, and have the opportunity to pick up a franchise guy.... those players come around once in a blue moon and you have to take them. As well, the draft, you get a great pick, maybe top five, and you take the best player possible.

'trane 01-17-2012 01:46 PM

two related elements included in that set of needs are the salary cap space/luxury tax space available, and the availability of additional space via the contracts that are expiring or could be shed. it would be nice to only consider whether a guy is good or whether he fits with the style of play you are trying to employ, but unfortunately the amount he gets paid and the amount you want to pay somebody else are critically important when you are trying to put a team together. this is the case for taking on any salary, not just franchise guys. i found that knowing about these details is important to trying to understand something about building teams.


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