Does Jose get amnestied/traded no matter what? - Page 3

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View Poll Results: Should Jose be gone by season's end?
Yep. Thanks for the memories but his time here is done. 13 24.53%
No. With the way he's playing he's worth keeping. 40 75.47%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-13-2012, 07:39 PM   #41 (permalink)
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sexy answer.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:43 PM   #42 (permalink)
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speaking of using your head, it is quite possible that by the time jose's contract is over, we have no cap space. if derozan signs a sizeable extension and we pick up any long term players, add a couple of draft picks, keep valanciunas beyond hid cap hold, and watch our current salaries increase year over year, it is very likely that we will be over the cap by then. if jose expires in a situation like that, which is very likely, it might not even net us enough room below the cap to sign a decent bench player. and if he is injured or slows down in pace at all before then his stock will plummet.

this year looks like our best year to make a free agent splash. there is no guarantee that things will turn out like this, but i think it is easily the most likely scenario.

so, using your head of course, how is it that he is more valuable then than now?
um.
look what his last years cap hit is.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:43 PM   #43 (permalink)
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They don't move him next summer if his stock remains this high they will regret it. The last 2-3yrs his stock was pretty garbage, he finally starts to play better and we're trying to build and we'll keep him? Who's moveable on this team for anything significant if we want to improve? Andrea, Demar and right now Jose.....let's hope he can stay healthy and continue playing like he has so far. And let's hope BC pulls the trigger in the summer. Know when to sell.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:44 PM   #44 (permalink)
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um.
look what his last years cap hit is.
um, it's meaningless if we're well over the cap by then.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:45 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I hope you guys consider that Toronto is only one of a large number of teams that will hav cap space next year.....and it is also not really a destiny most the top guys consider of value....

funny how we like to think in a vacuum.
Well, despite the fact that I agree that Toronto probably won't land a top FA with cap space next year, that's only one level of thinking. There is also the potential for a lopsided trade (lopsided financially).

The point is, you explore all options and then decided what to do with Jose. Absolute answers of any kind are not helpful at this point. It depends on the scenarios that are (or are not) available to Colangelo.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:50 PM   #46 (permalink)
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billy, of course, I agree... you ALWAYS explore, always look to improve, but the fact remains, doing nothing with Jos means two more years with a good technically sound PG and leader, and, 8-10 million off the cap when he is done. I'm not sure what trane' is thinking, Toronto won't EVER be over the cap, so at worst you're looking at a bit to play with.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:55 PM   #47 (permalink)
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billy, of course, I agree... you ALWAYS explore, always look to improve, but the fact remains, doing nothing with Jos means two more years with a good technically sound PG and leader, and, 8-10 million off the cap when he is done. I'm not sure what trane' is thinking, Toronto won't EVER be over the cap, so at worst you're looking at a bit to play with.
in the raps history, we have been over the cap far more than under it. i'm starting to think you don't know the difference between the cap and the tax. maybe i'm wrong, but i think the chances of being under the cap 2 years from now are pretty slim.

there's a big difference between $8-10 mil off your total salary and $8-10 mil under the cap.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:56 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Yeah, we're rarely if ever under the cap. We're always in the 65-70Mil range.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:30 PM   #49 (permalink)
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have a look at the roster..you'll see.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:43 PM   #50 (permalink)
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this top this , top that thing is really a wrong way to look at it. I'd rather judge his value with a tier system.

...

You may disagree with how I rank them, but if I were to place jose in one of these tiers, I would say that he's definitely in the 3rd tier when healthy.
ok, so i disagree that he's in the same tier as Mike Conley. and it's back to square 1
semantics
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:56 PM   #51 (permalink)
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have a look at the roster..you'll see.
ok, let's do that...

Toronto Raptors Team Salary | HOOPSWORLD | Basketball News & NBA Rumors

i think we can safely assume that guys like magloire, carter, butler, weems and gray don't matter. but we can also assume that other guys will have to be signed in their places. i would also think that, if colangelo is hoping not to tank again next year, that he won't just sign guys for minimum 1 year deals. this means that, even if no big names are signed, we're likely to spend more on the bench mob than we do now. one oddball is barbosa, and who knows what will happen with him. maybe he comes back, maybe he gets traded, maybe he just disappears. regardless, we have to sign lots of players for next year.

-we have a high-ish draft pick (a few million there) and valanciunas (a few more million). bayless is up, so he will need to be signed (his QO is $4mil) or we will need to get another pg. so between those 3 guys we're looking at $10 mil, give or take.

-in the next 3 years, amir goes to $6, $6.5 and $7 mil.

-james johnson has a QO of $4 mil coming up in 2013-14, unless he gets an extension before that. depending on how he performs, we may be paying him more or losing him.

-derozan is due for an extension as jose expires, and if he can play, i don't think colangelo is going to want to wait until the offseason to do that (a la cb4). there's another multi-million, multi-year deal right there.

after all that, we still need guards (both 1 and 2), a starting SF, and probably a bench big or 2. at least. assuming that these aren't minimum salary guys, i don't see how we will spend less than $15 mil, at the very least, on these guys.

so where does that leave us? i'll tell you one thing for sure, it leaves us with not much cap room. and if we sign any more large-ish salaries on the way, we can pretty much guarantee we'll be over the cap by a wide margin.

but what do i know?
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:17 PM   #52 (permalink)
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you dont know shit becaus enothing you just said is a fact now is anything but you guessing at this and that, Fact is, toronto is set up to succeed financially right now. But we'll see, a lot cn happen.

Fact is, Jost is a much etter player than you guys give him redit for, and the idea of getting rid of him just for the heck of it is ridiculous unless youre seeing something big come back.
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:18 PM   #53 (permalink)
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For the heck of it?
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:30 PM   #54 (permalink)
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you dont know shit becaus enothing you just said is a fact now is anything but you guessing at this and that, Fact is, toronto is set up to succeed financially right now. But we'll see, a lot cn happen.

Fact is, Jost is a much etter player than you guys give him redit for, and the idea of getting rid of him just for the heck of it is ridiculous unless youre seeing something big come back.
of course nothing is fact. if you can build an even remotely likely scenario where we don't sign anyone of value and don't sign any extensions i would love to hear it.

we are set up well financially. that is true. but that is precisely why i think now is the time to make a splash. it's pretty evident that we won't stay this way for long, and that investments in players will take place.

and that says nothing about jose's value. what it does say is that we have the flexibility to improve if it looks like we can get something better for the money we are currently paying for his services.
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Old 01-14-2012, 12:05 AM   #55 (permalink)
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ok, so i disagree that he's in the same tier as Mike Conley. and it's back to square 1
semantics
not the right approach though, you don't compare jose with conley, first you agree on the tiers and then you place jose in the appropriate tier. He might be slightly better or slightly worse than some players in that tier, but he's in that range.

so when you say (tongue in cheek as it may be) that jose is not in the same tier as conley, you should instead clarify whether you think conley doesn't belong in that tier (which makes little difference as long as your choice of tiers is not dramatically different overall), or if you think jose belongs in the inferior tier (I would strongly disagree with that - he's a superior player to the likes of chalmer and such).

imo, the main advanrtage with such an approach is that it avoids comparing players who are fairly close in value where it's too difficult to reach any kind of agreement. While no sane person would say jose is as good as rose, when you try to compare him with the felton's and conley's of the league, it gets tricky. Each of those players have strengths and weaknesses (what's better to shoot very well, or to have good lateral quickness? etc)
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Old 01-14-2012, 12:13 AM   #56 (permalink)
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good post moremilk. and to add to it, i think it's important to put those strengths and weaknesses in the context of what team they can work for, and what players they might be surrounded with. it's one thing to say a guy is a good player, and another to say he would be the right player for a given team. especially for point guards below that top tier.
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Old 01-14-2012, 12:19 AM   #57 (permalink)
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The happiest guy around that Jose is still here after all this time is Jose himself. It makes you wonder if he would take a small discount to stay. And unless we have the chance to land a stud PG or starter, what difference does it make that Jose is here dropping dimes until his contract runs out?
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:52 AM   #58 (permalink)
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not the right approach though, you don't compare jose with conley, first you agree on the tiers and then you place jose in the appropriate tier. He might be slightly better or slightly worse than some players in that tier, but he's in that range.
there was no tongue in cheek re Conley, i simply think Conley is a superior player and I'd take him over Calderon.

everyone of us uses 'tiers' in their minds. it happens more along the lines of "clearly better", "maybe, I'd have to think about it", "worse", etc.
you can achieve the same with numerical tiers if you like. But in the end, tier-ing is just a part of thought process when you rank players.

anyway, there are at least 15 guys whom I'd put above Calderon without a "maybe". You didn't mention all of them in your post btw, Jrue Holiday is one, Stephen Curry, Jameer Nelson, but there might be a few more.


Quote:
so when you say (tongue in cheek as it may be) that jose is not in the same tier as conley, you should instead clarify whether you think conley doesn't belong in that tier (which makes little difference as long as your choice of tiers is not dramatically different overall), or if you think jose belongs in the inferior tier (I would strongly disagree with that - he's a superior player to the likes of chalmer and such).
or i can create a few more tiers.
what if i think Rondo is clearly better than Holiday who is clearly better than Conley who is clearly better than Calderon? in your system, there are no tiers at all in between Rondo and Calderon.

Quote:
imo, the main advanrtage with such an approach is that it avoids comparing players who are fairly close in value where it's too difficult to reach any kind of agreement. While no sane person would say jose is as good as rose, when you try to compare him with the felton's and conley's of the league, it gets tricky. Each of those players have strengths and weaknesses (what's better to shoot very well, or to have good lateral quickness? etc)
well there was a guy in this forum just days ago who said he wouldn't trade Calderon unless there's a top 5 point guard coming back in trade.

Personally, I see more point in ranking players based on how I see their value, rather than try to build a try to please everyone by grouping Calderon with both superior and inferior players.

Quote:
conley's of the league, it gets tricky. Each of those players have strengths and weaknesses (what's better to shoot very well, or to have good lateral quickness? etc)
well Conley shoots very well (except this month), he has good lateral quickness, and he's one of the better defensive points. I don't see any team where I'd rather have Calderon than Conley. So, I place Conley higher.
And we could do this with Holiday or Felton, etc.

I just don't see the point to artificially "group" them together with Calderon when I'm convinced that they are more valuable to a team.
If someone disagrees, so be it. I can't say "Conley has similar value as Calderon", when I don't think he does.
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Old 01-14-2012, 01:56 AM   #59 (permalink)
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put any of those on Raptors instead of Jose and we do worse even while PG productivity is better

Calderon is Raptor for life
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Old 01-14-2012, 02:59 AM   #60 (permalink)
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we need jose
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