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Raptors Forum | Toronto Raptors Forums & Message Boards - Does Jose get amnestied/traded no matter what?
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-   -   Does Jose get amnestied/traded no matter what? (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/does-jose-get-amnestied-traded-no-matter-what-21878.html)

'trane 01-13-2012 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeToronto (Post 599530)
OK, I will take off my Jose Supporter hat for a second...

Yes, if trading or amnestying him means upgrade to the PG position (which Deron clearly is), I'd do it. I won't feel particularly good doing it, but I'd do it.

Hat goes back on...

However, simply dumping him or trading him hoping Bayless or someone of his caliber will make this team successful is pure folly. To me, when healthy, Jose is a top 10-15 PG in the league. Consequently, the replacement'd better be in place and it'd better be good...

i don't think too many people are suggesting that we should just toss him for nothing, with no plan to replace the position. not anymore, anyways.

jose has been really good this year, there's no doubt about that. he is proving some of my earlier criticisms wrong with his strong play and his improved defense. that said, he's no saviour, and if we can get better talent and/or a difference maker at any position, we should go for it. we have some decent trade assets to fill holes at pg if we end up getting a star at any of the other positions.

my point is that jose shouldn't stop you from getting significantly better, not only at the pg spot, but at any position. adding a star at 2, 3, 4 or 5 is more important as having an effective pg. or, put another way, improving at the pg spot is not the only reason to get rid of jose.

Superjudge 01-13-2012 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 599489)
mike - how can you be so sure. i mean, if deron williams were available at $14 mil, would you say no, you'd rather keep jose at $10 mil?

OMG be realistic.

Superjudge 01-13-2012 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 599532)
i don't think too many people are suggesting that we should just toss him for nothing, with no plan to replace the position. not anymore, anyways.

jose has been really good this year, there's no doubt about that. he is proving some of my earlier criticisms wrong with his strong play and his improved defense. that said, he's no saviour, and if we can get better talent and/or a difference maker at any position, we should go for it. we have some decent trade assets to fill holes at pg if we end up getting a star at any of the other positions.

my point is that jose shouldn't stop you from getting significantly better, not only at the pg spot, but at any position. adding a star at 2, 3, 4 or 5 is more important as having an effective pg. or, put another way, improving at the pg spot is not the only reason to get rid of jose.

This makes sense to me.

Your goal is always to get better, and you make whatever decision based upon that principle.

That said, I have always held strong to the idea that the grass will always remain greener to some people, one the other side.

I'd use Jose to get a superstar in a Package... I.e. a 1rst round pick, Jose gets me...Howard, or other types of look.

ya know?

DanH 01-13-2012 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 599515)
has to wait one year.

Actually, from what I recall, the team has to wait until the original contract has run its course. Of course, in Jose's case, that would be one year if he was hypothetically amnestied next off-season, so it makes little difference.

jeffb 01-13-2012 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superjudge (Post 599546)
I'd use Jose to get a superstar in a Package... I.e. a 1rst round pick, Jose gets me...Howard, or other types of look.

ya know?

Superstar, for Jose? :dead:

Chiggmo 01-13-2012 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superjudge (Post 599546)
This makes sense to me.

Your goal is always to get better, and you make whatever decision based upon that principle.

That said, I have always held strong to the idea that the grass will always remain greener to some people, one the other side.

I'd use Jose to get a superstar in a Package... I.e. a 1rst round pick, Jose gets me...Howard, or other types of look.

ya know?

It would take A LOT more than that to get Howard, rental or not. Jus sayin ;)

MikeToronto 01-13-2012 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 599532)
i don't think too many people are suggesting that we should just toss him for nothing, with no plan to replace the position. not anymore, anyways.

Just look at the poll that started this thread. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 599532)
jose has been really good this year, there's no doubt about that. he is proving some of my earlier criticisms wrong with his strong play and his improved defense. that said, he's no saviour, and if we can get better talent and/or a difference maker at any position, we should go for it. we have some decent trade assets to fill holes at pg if we end up getting a star at any of the other positions.

my point is that jose shouldn't stop you from getting significantly better, not only at the pg spot, but at any position. adding a star at 2, 3, 4 or 5 is more important as having an effective pg. or, put another way, improving at the pg spot is not the only reason to get rid of jose.

Some positions are more important than others. This team lacks ball-handling and decision-making even with Jose, so "replacing" him with an upgrade at another position makes us weaker, IMO.

2012 01-13-2012 06:08 PM

LOL, why Howard or deron williams want come here? This players change team for one reason = win league. Raptors can offer this next season? No. So, i think you can get good sexy PG only from draft. :)

Dario 01-13-2012 06:34 PM

I wouldn't waste it on Jose if i was BC. I really don't know who I would amnesty.

'trane 01-13-2012 06:42 PM

firstly, at no point did i say we could get deron williams or howard. i said 'if' we could, would you let jose get in the way?

secondly, i was responding to an absolute: "keep jose"

third, in response to mike - if you can get a star, at any position, that is more valuable than a safe and decent pg. there is no question in my mind. if you can't get a star, you consider more closely, thus my first post in this thread. but if colangelo turns down a clear star at any position because he wants to keep jose calderon he's completely off his rocker.

ValanciunasFanboy 01-13-2012 06:54 PM

i don't think he's a top 10-15 point guard as has been suggested. but i still don't see the point in just getting rid of him.
there has to be a plan in place.
if there's an above average starting free agent you are targeting - why not.
otherwise, you should just resign him, he'd likely take half the current salary anyway.

EggsToTheBBQ 01-13-2012 06:58 PM

Jose always racks up assists, and always has a good AST/TO ratio.

IMO, the difference between good Jose and bad Jose is shooting percentages and defense.

Both fail when his hamstring does...

DDUnreal 01-13-2012 07:49 PM

He's a lifer.

jeffb 01-13-2012 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDUnreal (Post 599632)
He's a lifer.

:sigh:

Superjudge 01-13-2012 08:06 PM

I hope you guys consider that Toronto is only one of a large number of teams that will hav cap space next year.....and it is also not really a destiny most the top guys consider of value....

funny how we like to think in a vacuum.

Superjudge 01-13-2012 08:08 PM

ps. after this he has what...2 seasons? Toronto is NOT gonna contend before that, and really, his value is WAY BIGGER as an expiring, or just coming off the books as JV, and whoever else toronto drafts/ developes comes into their ow, with a bags that will only be better as well.

Use your heads boys

hmmm...wait though, if we dont improve right away, we may risk losing Demar The chosen one Derozan!

jeffb 01-13-2012 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superjudge (Post 599649)
ps. after this he has what...2 seasons? Toronto is NOT gonna contend before that, and really, his value is WAY BIGGER as an expiring, or just coming off the books as JV, and whoever else toronto drafts/ developes comes into their ow, with a bags that will only be better as well.

Use your heads boys

hmmm...wait though, if we dont improve right away, we may risk losing Demar The chosen one Derozan!

Next season is his last on his contract

moremilk 01-13-2012 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy (Post 599607)
i don't think he's a top 10-15 point guard as has been suggested.

this top this , top that thing is really a wrong way to look at it. I'd rather judge his value with a tier system. You have the elite PGs (paul, rose, deron, westbrook, nash), the secod tier (rondo, parker, lawson, rubio, lowry etc), the third tier (felton, andre miller, conley, collison, billups, jennings, devin harris, kidd, wall), the 4th tier (chalmers, udrih, bayless, jarett jack ) and so on.

You may disagree with how I rank them, but if I were to place jose in one of these tiers, I would say that he's definitely in the 3rd tier when healthy. So depending on how many players you place in the top two tiers, you can argue that he's in the 10-20 range, or 12-25, or 8-15 etc.

The important thing is that no team will ever trade (willingly ...) a top tier and would only trade a second tier guard for a really, really good player. So until we draft a PG, or Jose gets injured, we're not getting a better PG than him.

'trane 01-13-2012 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superjudge (Post 599649)
ps. after this he has what...2 seasons? Toronto is NOT gonna contend before that, and really, his value is WAY BIGGER as an expiring, or just coming off the books as JV, and whoever else toronto drafts/ developes comes into their ow, with a bags that will only be better as well.

Use your heads boys

hmmm...wait though, if we dont improve right away, we may risk losing Demar The chosen one Derozan!

speaking of using your head, it is quite possible that by the time jose's contract is over, we have no cap space. if derozan signs a sizeable extension and we pick up any long term players, add a couple of draft picks, keep valanciunas beyond hid cap hold, and watch our current salaries increase year over year, it is very likely that we will be over the cap by then. if jose expires in a situation like that, which is very likely, it might not even net us enough room below the cap to sign a decent bench player. and if he is injured or slows down in pace at all before then his stock will plummet.

this year looks like our best year to make a free agent splash. there is no guarantee that things will turn out like this, but i think it is easily the most likely scenario.

so, using your head of course, how is it that he is more valuable then than now?

Bill Haverchuck 01-13-2012 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superjudge (Post 599649)
ps. after this he has what...2 seasons?

You're a supposed genius meter, so you shouldn't have to ask.

Quote:

his value is WAY BIGGER as an expiring
Not necessarily. It depends on the trade partner. There could be a number of scenarios in play. Expiring contracts are particularly valuable when two teams over the cap, or barely under, are trading with each other. However, if the Raps are far under the cap, they could take back more salary in a lopsided trade. That could be appealing to a trading partner team looking to do a salary dump while giving up a talented piece to the Raps.

Quote:

Use your heads boys
Please take your own advice more often.


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