Does anyone else think that.....
Old 04-04-2010, 11:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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.... this lineup could have been good for 50 wins this season if it was put in place from Day 1?

PG - Jack/Banks
SG - Weems/DD
SF - Wright/Belli
PF - Bosh/Amir
C - Bargs/Amir

A tight 9-man rotation with Rasho and Reggie being used sparingly depending on the matchup.

Basically life without Hedo and Jose (a what if).

I was speaking with a SAC fan on another board and he seemed to think that there MIGHT be an outside chance that Hedo would be taken back by the Kings since they're in need of some veteran leadership and some additional ballhandling and scoring to take the pressure off of Evans.

The proposed trade would be something like... Hedo for Garcia + Nocioni.

I don't know about anyone else but I would drive Hedo to the damn airport for that.

Then hopefully find a way to deal Jose for a defensive big.

Anyhow..... I do have some hope for this team if some moves can be made in the offseason... starting with re-signing CB4.
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Old 04-04-2010, 11:51 PM   #2 (permalink)
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We'd struggle scoring if Bargs didnt show up on certain nights, and the D still wouldnt be average IMO due to many reasons. Add on the fact that theres a real lack of overall talent and perimeter skill, we'd be lucky to win 41 games.
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Old 04-04-2010, 11:53 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Like I said before, I love Jose, but for this team to be good I think we need to move him and continue with Jack and another good defensive PG. Hedo also has to go cuz having a 50 mil guy on the bench is a waste
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Old 04-04-2010, 11:53 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by thriller92 View Post
We'd struggle scoring if Bargs didnt show up on certain nights, and the D still wouldnt be average IMO due to many reasons. Add on the fact that theres a real lack of overall talent and perimeter skill, we'd be lucky to win 41 games.
We don't need any more skill.... we need BALLERS.
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:15 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by thriller92 View Post
We'd struggle scoring if Bargs didnt show up on certain nights, and the D still wouldnt be average IMO due to many reasons. Add on the fact that theres a real lack of overall talent and perimeter skill, we'd be lucky to win 41 games.
My initial feelings are more along the lines of what Thriller suggested.

Even though Hedo and Jose are liabilities on the defensive end, they do create open looks and have helped make the current Raps unit one of the most efficient offensive teams in the league.

With the unit you've suggested, TORap, I think the D would be better. The improved defense might balance out the loss of play making on offense. I think they could win 41 games. But that basically puts the Raps in the same spot.

Now, could that unit win more than 41 games in the future? I think that's possible, since I still believe that Weems, DD and Amir have not yet played their best basketball. I'm not sure how much better they'll get, but I think they'll get better. So there would be internal improvement.

In regards to the speculated Hedo trade, I think that is possible, even if somewhat unlikely. Yes, Hedo's deal is shit, but over the next 3 years Nocioni and Garcia combine to earn more money. So, in terms of payroll, the Kings don't take much of a hit until the last year of the Hedo deal. Plus, the Kings now have Landry, which means fewer available minutes for Nocioni at the PF spot. With the development of Casspi, the Kings have few minutes to give Noc at the SF position. Garcia is not a playmaker, and he also loses minutes to Casspi. If the Kings want a playmaking vet backing up Casspi, then they are better off with Hedo than they are with Garcia and Noc. The Raps benefit from this because it gives them more flexibility. One of Garcia or Noc could probably be packaged with an expiring (Evans or Banks) to get a quality player earning $10 mill range salary. Also, they could just serve as an insurance policy if Amir and Wright choose not to resign. Weems takes Wright's minutes, Garcia takes Hedo's minutes, and Noc takes Amir's minutes (although I'd rather have Amir).

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Old 04-05-2010, 12:26 AM   #6 (permalink)
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We'd struggle scoring if Bargs didnt show up on certain nights, and the D still wouldnt be average IMO due to many reasons. Add on the fact that theres a real lack of overall talent and perimeter skill, we'd be lucky to win 41 games.
This statement confuses me.... Banks, Weems & Wright guarding on the perimeter and you don't think that that would make for even an AVG defensive team?

And how much offense are Jose and Hedo giving us right now?

You don't think that Weems and Amir/Belli/DD could replace that? I do.

Obviously it would be outstanding if we could a guy like Monta Ellis or Joe Johnson to help with that.... but I just can't see it happening.
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:39 AM   #7 (permalink)
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On paper, thats a pretty shitty team, especially considering that Weems and Amir hadn't made a name for themselves yet.
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:40 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I think, if we had any other coach than T-shit, we'll be in that 5 spot for sure!
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:51 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post

And how much offense are Jose and Hedo giving us right now?

You don't think that Weems and Amir/Belli/DD could replace that? I do.
I left out the points you made about defense, because I agree that it would improve, at least a bit. But the ones I quoted relate to my post, so I'm going to address them.

The offensive contributions that Jose and Hedo make to the team can be demonstrated both statistically and through observation (if you know what to look for).

1 - Hedo and Jose combine for 10 assists per game. Bellinellis can't replace all that. Belli is a decent playmaker, but is WILDLY inconsistent. He's awesome in games such as the win against the Lakers, yet he also dissapers for 10 games at a time.

2 - NO, I don't think Weems, Amir, Belli and DD could replace Jose and Turk's offensive contributions. At least not immediately. Maybe in 2 years. Why? Because some of the open looks, and therefore points, that Weems, DD and Amir get are from plays created by Jose and Turk. Equally important, DD and Weems currently have shit for range on their jumpers. Sonny has a solid mid range game, which I'm loving, but he has no 3 point stroke. Think about it, dude. Seriously. Teams would sag off so much on the lineup you've listed. Part of the reason Sonny gets open jumpers is because of good spacing on the court. If you don't have guys whose outside shots need to be respected at least a bit, then you're fucked everytime Bosh is on the bench. No spacing due to outside shooting + no double on Bosh = terrible looks for players who can't create their own shots and don't have much range on thier jumpers. Furthermore, if Bargs has an off game, then you're really fucked, as Thriller already mentioned.

3 - So, you need to add some playmaking and outside shooting to that squad. Use the $18 mill you'd save with Hedo and Jose gone to bring in an All-Star wing who plays 2 way ball. Then maybe you'd have your 50 wins.

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Old 04-05-2010, 12:57 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Josey should be in it, Turk I don't care... soon Beli and Barg will call the mafias to take him away
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Old 04-05-2010, 01:01 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ArmChairGM View Post
I left out the points you made about defense, because I agree that it would improve, at least a bit. But the ones I quoted relate to my post, so I'm going to address them.

The offensive contributions that Jose and Hedo make to the team can be demonstrated both statistically and through observation (if you know what to look for).

1 - Hedo and Jose combine for 10 assists per game. Bellinellis can't replace all that. Belli is a decent playmaker, but is WILDLY inconsistent. He's awesome in games such as the win against the Lakers, yet he also dissapers for 10 games at a time.

2 - NO, I don't think Weems, Amir, Belli and DD could replace Jose and Turk's offensive contributions. At least not immediately. Maybe in 2 years. Why? Because some of the open looks, and therefore points, that Weems, DD and Amir get are from plays created by Jose and Turk. Equally important, DD and Weems currently have shit for range on their jumpers. Sonny has a solid mid range game, which I'm loving, but he has no 3 point stroke. Think about it, dude. Seriously. Teams would sag off so much on the lineup you've listed. Part of the reason Sonny gets open jumpers is because of good spacing on the court. If you don't have guys whose outside shots need to be respected at least a bit, then you're fucked everytime Bosh is on the bench. No spacing due to outside shooting + no double on Bosh = terrible looks for players who can't create their own shots and don't have much range on thier jumpers. Furthermore, if Bargs has an off game, then you're really fucked, as Thriller already mentioned.

3 - So, you need to add some playmaking and outside shooting to that squad. Use the $18 mill you'd save with Hedo and Jose gone to bring in an All-Star wing who plays 2 way ball. Then maybe you'd have your 50 wins.
Sonny doesn't need a 3-point shot. He has range out to 18 ft. and that's fine. Bargs, Jack, Wright and even Bosh can hit the 3. That's enough to create good spacing on offense. Avery Johnson helped the Spurs to a title and HE couldn't hit anything outside of 17ft.

You could very well be right about Jose's contributions.... but I'm still doubtful when it comes to Hedo's. I think that he MIGHT have had a major influence on what? 5 or 6 games this season? lol....

When it comes to replacing offense you'd have Jack, Weems, Wright and DD who would all have to avg 10-15 pts/gm for it to work.... would it have been possible? Maybe.
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Old 04-05-2010, 01:23 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Sonny doesn't need a 3-point shot. He has range out to 18 ft. and that's fine. Bargs, Jack, Wright and even Bosh can hit the 3. That's enough to create good spacing on offense. Avery Johnson helped the Spurs to a title and HE couldn't hit anything outside of 17ft.

You could very well be right about Jose's contributions.... but I'm still doubtful when it comes to Hedo's. I think that he MIGHT have had a major influence on what? 5 or 6 games this season? lol....

When it comes to replacing offense you'd have Jack, Weems, Wright and DD who would all have to avg 10-15 pts/gm for it to work.... would it have been possible? Maybe.
1 - Avery Johnson? That came out of nowhere. He had two hall of fame big men with him. And, yes, he was often dared to shoot from 12-15 feet, since the opposition was doubling on Duncan or Robinson. Bosh is the only one who would command a consistent double. Everytime Bosh takes a breather, your players who can't create for themselves would be fucked. Tight man to man from opposing defenses would not lead to many quality shots for the squad you've got. Some of those guys can finish, but they aren't great creators...at least not yet.

2 - How are Jack, Weems, Wright and DD going to all average 10-15 points with no playmaking? I highly doubt that squad would have solid ball movement. With the exception of Jack, those players have been finishing plays this year, not creating them. And Jack is only a decent playmaker. He is a solid signing, but he is not a great playmaker.

3 - Hedo was shit for longs stretches this year, but he also allowed the Raps to survive Jose's injury earlier in the year. During Jose's absence, Hedo averaged 5.7 assists per game. Hedo created more shots for people than Jack did....little known fact. Hedo's playmaking masked Banks's offensive deficiencies so people could admire his hustle on defense. In your scenario, you wouldn't have Jose, so you need another playmaker to complement Jack and to play with the second unit when Banks is getting some burn, which is what Hedo did.

4 - Again, if you don't have Hedo or Jose, you need to add a talented playmaker/outside shooter to your squad with the $18 million. Or use the money to add a couple of upgrades.

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Old 04-05-2010, 03:10 AM   #13 (permalink)
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no that lineup would not win 50 games, HEDO WINS 50 GAMES
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Old 04-05-2010, 06:44 AM   #14 (permalink)
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if we had marion instead of wright starting at the 3 maybe I doubt it though, probably a 45 win team

the idea of signing turk was to compete against the best, which we have when the teams wants to play and turk is into the game but this totally turned on triano, it might get him fired, triano is a great coach when it comes to plays and organization, its motivation that he cant get out of his players

I think thats why guys like SVG, Phil Jackson, JVG, Riley are better, they got the plays and organization but htey also no how to motivate on another level

i'm pretty sure if JVG was running this team we would be a 50 win team, just think after the allstar break the first four were getable games, throw in denver and miami, maybe two games in the start of the season, that makes us instantly a 46 win team with the remainder of the season to play

maybe the blame is on MLSE also, not willing ot spend the cash to bring a top dollar coach here in the first place, just look at George Karl in Denver and him not being on the team

if MLSE was serious about signing Bosh they should move up into the 80 million dollar range in spending, all the guys we have are around bosh's age, there all young and only get better, bargs,sonny,demar,jack,amir,beli
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Old 04-05-2010, 09:12 AM   #15 (permalink)
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It is easy to blame MLSE but in reality they aren't the problem.
Nor is BCs fault if you must cast some blame look at the NBA rules.
They have allowed teams like LA,Dallas,Celtics, Knicks, Cavaliers, Magic and Spurs to excedd 80 million $. Well Spors are less than 1 million below.
Last year even if MLSE told BC spend 90 million he couldn't as it is he maximized the talent on the team with the sign and trade with Hedo.
If not he would not been able to get assets like Weems, Amir, Wright and Beli.
He could have gotten Jack on the exemption.
The rules are such that Cleveland could trade Ziggy then get him waived and resign him.
Next year they can resign him to a large contract.
A team like OKL could do the same but they don't have the cash.
A team like the Knicks will not be able to get a contender even with all the cash unless they get LBJ which they won't.
The reality is a real cap is required to bring parity.
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Old 04-05-2010, 09:16 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I don't think we are a team that actually relies all that much on Jose and Hedo as playmakers, unfortunately. The offense comes off of transition more often than not. In halfcourt sets Bosh and Bargnani have been playmakers more than Hedo or Jose.

Nor do we benefit all that much from spacing with good three-point shooters. Defenses do sag off of our shooters. There is no consistent three point threat on this team. Weems still does provide some spacing by positioning himself in the corner and moving in before taking his shot. He is able to step inside of the arc due to the defense sagging off of him so much.

With that said we need to move Hedo or Jose for sure. And if they both go then a two-way player that can create a little bit and/or be that consistent 3-point threat would be the way to go. I think it's possible that Beli could fill a role of a playmaker, but that's a bit of a gamble. I think he could very easily provide more than Hedo does off the bench right now, and with a more definitive role might become more consistent. He needs to get his shot straightened out, and I don't know if he strengthens the team defensively in all matchups, but I wouldn't just give up on the possibility just yet.

And yep - they are going to need to go over the tax threshold to really get this done. They are going to need a player that can win games on nights when Bosh is off or hurt, and that otherwise compliments Bosh and Bargs well. They need to be able to get more production from the backcourt in general, so that there is more of a balance in the lineup. If games end up being about our frontline against the opposing backcourt, then we're going to tend to come out on the short end.
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Old 04-05-2010, 09:28 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Jack made a good point yesterday after the game. He said that other then 5 or so players this team is young and has no experience at being in this position.
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Old 04-05-2010, 09:34 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Jack made a good point yesterday after the game. He said that other then 5 or so players this team is young and has no experience at being in this position.
That's why signing Hedo made sense, and why it's pretty damn disappointing that he's coming off the bench and playing under twenty minutes at this point.

And it's also what is missing from the lineup in the first post. Add some solid experience and skill in that lineup and you have something. Just subtracting Jose and Hedo doesn't provide much of an answer on its own.
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Old 04-05-2010, 10:26 AM   #19 (permalink)
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That's why signing Hedo made sense, and why it's pretty damn disappointing that he's coming off the bench and playing under twenty minutes at this point.

And it's also what is missing from the lineup in the first post. Add some solid experience and skill in that lineup and you have something. Just subtracting Jose and Hedo doesn't provide much of an answer on its own.
Leadership, Defence, and a solid 3 pt. Shooting threat like you mentioned in your last post..

This team needs Shane Battier.

Jack/Battier/Wright/Bosh/Bargnani could go for 50 wins imo.
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Old 04-05-2010, 10:29 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I don't think we are a team that actually relies all that much on Jose and Hedo as playmakers, unfortunately. The offense comes off of transition more often than not. In halfcourt sets Bosh and Bargnani have been playmakers more than Hedo or Jose.

Nor do we benefit all that much from spacing with good three-point shooters. Defenses do sag off of our shooters. There is no consistent three point threat on this team. Weems still does provide some spacing by positioning himself in the corner and moving in before taking his shot. He is able to step inside of the arc due to the defense sagging off of him so much.

With that said we need to move Hedo or Jose for sure. And if they both go then a two-way player that can create a little bit and/or be that consistent 3-point threat would be the way to go. I think it's possible that Beli could fill a role of a playmaker, but that's a bit of a gamble. I think he could very easily provide more than Hedo does off the bench right now, and with a more definitive role might become more consistent. He needs to get his shot straightened out, and I don't know if he strengthens the team defensively in all matchups, but I wouldn't just give up on the possibility just yet.

And yep - they are going to need to go over the tax threshold to really get this done. They are going to need a player that can win games on nights when Bosh is off or hurt, and that otherwise compliments Bosh and Bargs well. They need to be able to get more production from the backcourt in general, so that there is more of a balance in the lineup. If games end up being about our frontline against the opposing backcourt, then we're going to tend to come out on the short end.
This is what I was thinking as well.

And I agree with you about not necessarily needing playmakers to make things work. If we concentrated more on being a halfcourt team that works off of swinging the ball out of double teams it's possible we could be fine.

Not without risk for sure..... but I'm just so sick of watching our D go to hell with Hedo and Jose on the floor. If they were producing on offense like Nash I could forgive them.... but I think we all know that's not exactly what's happened.
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