Do you want Bryan Colangelo back next season? - Page 4

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View Poll Results: Do you want Bryan Colangelo back next season?
Yes, let him finish what he has started 65 79.27%
No, his time is up 17 20.73%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-11-2011, 03:50 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Did you ever consider that Colangelo probably expected Bosh to leave?

You did notice that the players he signed didn't compliment him well.

Jose's contract could look a lot better if he didn't have a string of injuries.

Hedo's contract was pretty much the same as what Portland offered. It was his market value after a strong season. Also, BC did a good job of bringing Hedo here without going over the cap. Shawn Marion was never going to sign with the Raptors when he had a good offer from the Mavs.

Bargs, well, I think we all expected and still expect more from Bargs.

The team is in good shape financially and the personnel decisions have a clear direction forward and upward. Most Raptor fans can see the same.
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:05 PM   #62 (permalink)
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I'll break it down for you again 'trane just so we're clear here.

ONE max player doesn't even come close to "bankrupting" a team. Even IF Bosh would have been given the max, his production (based on last year's numbers) would have warranted it. Rudy Gay and JJ are making the max right now... so is Amare.... would he really have been so out of place?

The problem lies in the REST of the roster and the contracts that BC doled out left, right and center to guys who were ALL OFFENSE... NO DEFENSE.

Jose... Bargs.. Hedo (which has since turned into LB)... Kleiza.... how much money is/was tied into those players? Players who (other than Jose perhaps) never complimented Bosh's skills. Why did we bother squandering money rather than just acquiring picks and filling out the roster with young (cheap)players?

The plain simple root of the matter is this..... you need STARS to win in this league. More than one.... or else you're going to struggle. Period.

I put a lot of blame on BC because we HAD one piece of the puzzle here.... a piece that A LOT of other teams wanted... but he did a very poor job of building around that piece. Excuses be damned.

I don't have a problem with people saying that they'd just prefer to "go in another direction".... but the whole "Bosh never lead this team anywhere... he was too hard to build around" is total B.S. It's an excuse perpetrated by a GM who made A LOT of mistakes... mistakes that ended up blowing up in his face.
you bolded dutches saying that losing Bosh was a god-send, and then went on to say you were stupified by it. that is what i was replying to, not the idea of Bosh never leading this team anywhere. those are separate thoughts. you could argue that he might have led us somewhere, and i would disagree. but that disagreement is not what prompted me to respond. it is your repeated denial of a valid point by obfuscating that point that i am objecting to. and you did it again in your last paragraph.

one player does not bankrupt a team, but with jose, jack, hedo and Bargs also on the books it does. we had trouble or were unwilling to get rid of those guys. not bosh's fault, but a reality. we were capped out and nearly lux'ed out this year. this means we were certainly hamstrung financially. Bosh wanted to leave, so he did. that gives us the chance to rebuild and to move in a new direction. having him here would mean the mle only (and likely the luxury tax) and probably a middling pick. not really much room to acquire picks and fill out the roster with young players, is it?

i am not disagreeing that you need stars. repeat, i am not disagreeing that you need stars. but having them and not having a team around them is not going to get you anywhere. at least we agree on this fact. but to me, this is screaming for a rebuild. Bosh wanted to go, and it gave us an opportunity that we would not have had otherwise. i don't see how you could possibly disagree with this.

does this mean bc did a great job? no.
does this mean any of this was bosh's fault or that he was not good enough? no.
does this mean that we are better off without him? i would say yes, and you would say no. and that's a perfectly fine disagreement because you think we could have won more games and i think we would have embedded ourselves in mediocrity.

surely, though, you have to accept that those who felt a rebuild was a good idea are not wrong to think our long-term possibilities are improved by having the flexibility to properly rebuild. it is your repeated denial of this position that is drawing my attention.

and to your point about johnson and gay - the johnson deal is widely considered to be a huge mistake. he's good, and the team is playoff-bound, but they aren't really a contender, and people are alreday talking about needing to trade smith because they can no longer afford such an expensive roster. they're financially screwed and destined for the 2nd round at best. it would take a miracle for them to contend in the next 5-7 years.

the gay max deal is highly questionable too, especially since they have been playing well without him. but that said, they maxed him out when they had already added missing pieces like randolph and gasol, a playoff veteren defender like allen and a young buck in mayo. that is a very different stage in the team building effort than the raps last year. surely you can see how different that is.

but hey, thanks for breaking it down so clearly.
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:23 PM   #63 (permalink)
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you bolded dutches saying that losing Bosh was a god-send, and then went on to say you were stupified by it. that is what i was replying to, not the idea of Bosh never leading this team anywhere. those are separate thoughts. you could argue that he might have led us somewhere, and i would disagree. but that disagreement is not what prompted me to respond. it is your repeated denial of a valid point by obfuscating that point that i am objecting to. and you did it again in your last paragraph.

one player does not bankrupt a team, but with jose, jack, hedo and Bargs also on the books it does. we had trouble or were unwilling to get rid of those guys. not bosh's fault, but a reality. we were capped out and nearly lux'ed out this year. this means we were certainly hamstrung financially. Bosh wanted to leave, so he did. that gives us the chance to rebuild and to move in a new direction. having him here would mean the mle only (and likely the luxury tax) and probably a middling pick. not really much room to acquire picks and fill out the roster with young players, is it?

i am not disagreeing that you need stars. repeat, i am not disagreeing that you need stars. but having them and not having a team around them is not going to get you anywhere. at least we agree on this fact. but to me, this is screaming for a rebuild. Bosh wanted to go, and it gave us an opportunity that we would not have had otherwise. i don't see how you could possibly disagree with this.

does this mean bc did a great job? no.
does this mean any of this was bosh's fault or that he was not good enough? no.
does this mean that we are better off without him? i would say yes, and you would say no. and that's a perfectly fine disagreement because you think we could have won more games and i think we would have embedded ourselves in mediocrity.

surely, though, you have to accept that those who felt a rebuild was a good idea are not wrong to think our long-term possibilities are improved by having the flexibility to properly rebuild. it is your repeated denial of this position that is drawing my attention.

and to your point about johnson and gay - the johnson deal is widely considered to be a huge mistake. he's good, and the team is playoff-bound, but they aren't really a contender, and people are alreday talking about needing to trade smith because they can no longer afford such an expensive roster. they're financially screwed and destined for the 2nd round at best. it would take a miracle for them to contend in the next 5-7 years.

the gay max deal is highly questionable too, especially since they have been playing well without him. but that said, they maxed him out when they had already added missing pieces like randolph and gasol, a playoff veteren defender like allen and a young buck in mayo. that is a very different stage in the team building effort than the raps last year. surely you can see how different that is.

but hey, thanks for breaking it down so clearly.
You're right... I wouldn't have a problem with this assertion... as long as people acknowledged that this current "rebuilding process" was only made necessary because of some irresponsible spending over the last few years.... not because "our franchise guy wasn't as good as we thought he was".

I've had to hear year after year after year how "it's all Bosh's fault"... when he hasn't handed out a single contract or demanded a single player come aboard.

If I get a little "sandy" it's because people seem to have wholeheartedly bought into the idea that "poor BC couldn't do much and tried his best"... which IMO has been a successful con on his part.

Based on the contracts that we had on the books last season I certainly saw merit in the idea of "letting Bosh go to increase financial flexibility" (doesn't mean I liked it though).... it just irked me because it didn't HAVE to end up this way.

How much money do we have tied into Jose, Bargs and Kleiza right now? And all 3 could go this off-season and I doubt very much that our team would be much worse than it is now... THAT is what I find frustrating more than anything else. We're doling out a TON of money to players who don't make this team appreciably better. All we've been doing is saddling this team with dead weight.... it's what we've been doing for years... I just hope things change this off-season.
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:45 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Someone please post a Coles Notes verison of this thread
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:47 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Someone please post a Coles Notes verison of this thread
PRO - "Let him finish what he started"
CON - "Have you SEEN the last few years"

That about sums 'er up
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:13 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:48 PM   #67 (permalink)
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yes.... it's the majority that are insane.
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Originally Posted by fancylad View Post
Do you have faith in MLSE to bring in someone better?

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Originally Posted by RAPMAN View Post
Not to mention the majority stakeholder of MLSE. Indeed, BC has had some big strikeouts, the only thing saving his job were his solid draft choices of Derozan and Ed Davis. SELL, SELL, SELL your vision or its time to work for poppa again.
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Did you ever consider that Colangelo probably expected Bosh to leave?

You did notice that the players he signed didn't compliment him well.

Jose's contract could look a lot better if he didn't have a string of injuries.

Hedo's contract was pretty much the same as what Portland offered. It was his market value after a strong season. Also, BC did a good job of bringing Hedo here without going over the cap. Shawn Marion was never going to sign with the Raptors when he had a good offer from the Mavs.

Bargs, well, I think we all expected and still expect more from Bargs.

The team is in good shape financially and the personnel decisions have a clear direction forward and upward. Most Raptor fans can see the same.
@ Carp: When you consider that no one supports Rob Babcock for how he set back the franchise for what he got in return for Vince (and Rob got fired on Vince's birthday in 2006; a not so subtle message I think), and also consider that Chris was a better player in 2010 than Vince was in 2004, had made no aggressive trade demand, and yet Bryan still managed to get LESS in return for moving Chris than what Rob got for moving Vince, and even moved him to a better team (all that while Miami donates Micheal Beasley to the T'wolves for nothing; should make you wonder, eh?), and yet many of you still show support for him, then yes, I feel fully justified in stating that the majority in this thread are acting insane (or have problems w/their long term memory; I also gave that option).

Edit: And stripping down key peices year by year since summer 2007. That's what I was talking about when saying long-term memory regarding Bryan's tenure w/us. He's been fucking us over at every opportunity since summer 2007. That it happens over time instead of all happening at once makes it no less exceedingly fucked up.

@ fancylad: We already have someone better. It's Maurizio Gherardini. And don't for a second think that he & Coach Triano are one w/Bryan's plan. I've heard enough subtle jabs from Coach Triano to know that's not the case, and our team the past 2yrs have shown nothing of Maurizio's superior ball acumen (and professional ethics).


@ RAPMAN: Demar was raw as fuck in 2009. Coach Triano gets more credit for developing Demar than Bryan does for getting him. Let's keep in mind that Coach Triano has a history of developing underdeveloped or forgotten about NBA players (to the point that I beleive he's the best in the league at that, and that's no easy feat), and Demar's offensive game he's shown this season is reminiscint of how Chris played in 04-05. And remember that Coach Triano is the one who worked day-in, day-out w/Chris in his developing years, right up until his last day w/us in 2010.

And Ed Davis is a young lefty PF/C, juss like Chris. Thus Coach Triano gets much more kudos for Demar & Ed's development than Bryan does for getting them both here (and let's consider we still could've moved Ed for a piece to better help Chris, who was hoping on being here based on all evidence prior to summer 2010).


@ Eggs: No, I didn't consider that Bryan expected Chris to leave (but if you asked me if he created a situation wherein he could effectively tell Chris that its in his best interest to leave even though Chris WANTED to stay, I'll say yes; I've already said in at least 2 other threads that I believe Bryan is involved in collusion to fuck us over).

I've noticed all too well how Bryan has got peices around him that didn't compliment him well, especially in contrast w/how well MoPete, AP, TJ, JGraham in 08-09 (as in under Coach Triano, not under Smitch), and others complimented him perfectly, as in A-1.

I like Jose's game & contract. In fact I love Jose's game & contract. There aren't 5 better playmakers than Jose in the league, and he's a great shooter, pick'n'roll player, and he played his best defense this past season, improving on his work in 09-10.

We never should have brought Hedo here, as that took the ball out of Jose's hands and we didn't have enough shots for him w/how Chris and Andrea were developing (keep in mind Dwight was more a finisher in 08-09, and the offense was designed to get Hedo, Rashard and Jameer shots before Dwight; thus it wasn't gonna work in Toronto, as Chris was more a primary than he was a finisher). That and he wasn't nearly the off-ball scorer & defender that Anthony Parker, MoPete and Joey Graham are.

Jamario was a better fit for the team than Matrix was.

It's hard for Bargs be a traditional center on defense when no one else is bringing quality effort defensively either. It's tank nation in 10-11, remember?

This 'clear direction forward and upward' isn't nearly as clear, forward, and upward as having a team that can play any tempo, get after it defensively, had a good mix of young players & veterans, character guys, make our crowd go nuts w/plays on both ends of the floor, on and off court chemistry, and compete w/anyone as our 06-07 roster had, which Coach Triano never got a chance to coach even though that group was perfect for both of his offensive & defensive philosophies & all those guys have the utmost respect for him (and did not for Smitch).

Building from the ground up w/all the unforseen circumstances ahead + a GM who has fucked over our team each year since summer 2007 is the current 'clear direction forward and upward,' and its not nearly as good a vision as already having the peices like was the case in 06-07, which Bryan has thoroughly butchered.

Last edited by bladeofBG; 04-11-2011 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:06 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DSWC View Post
PRO - "Let him finish what he started"
CON - "Have you SEEN the last few years"

That about sums 'er up
Alright, I'm all caught up then!
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Old 04-11-2011, 07:05 PM   #69 (permalink)
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We need to resolve the ownership issue first, and preferably have someone come in more willing to commit than the MLSE. After that I don't see why BC shouldn't come back to finish this rebuild, same with Jay (Unless Sloan or Adelman decide Toronto's where they want to coach). And stop griping about Andrea, he's been hurt off and on all year and played through injuries; I can't foresee him being traded in any package that nets us a player who's currently way better or with more potential than him.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:59 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I'm still completely stupified when I hear comments like this..... after watching everything that we've had to watch this season I'm not sure how anyone can say that with a straight face.

We struggled to win games with Bosh because there really wasn't much here around him. Plain & simple. An unmotivated (and overpaid) Hedo... a gimpy JO.... what have these players done since they were in a Raps uni? They were both stop gaps at best. The only player that still seemed to have had some gas in the tank (Marion) was dealt away.

Kinda crazy if you ask me. How long do we have to give BC to build a winner here? 10 years? I mean... really?
I am not arguing we didn't have the pieces on the team to win. I agree with that. Really thats been a recurring trend with Toronto teams in general.

However, it's not "plain and simple". Bosh is not a centerpiece of a team. No one seems to realize this... The guy is a good jumpshooter with wonky knees and mediocre defensive skills. How is this the guy we're going to build around?? Dirk can do a bit of everything, Duncan even in his old age is a beast. Garnett could be 40 and still ball because he'll just make you cry while you have the ball.

Bosh has NONE of these skill sets. Sure, he can get boards on a .500 team, but he's not exactly Dennis Rodman-ing in Miami (yes I'm making it a verb).

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I don't miss Bosh either. I didn't really like his game. Scoring PFs are very difficult to build around.
Eggs is completely correct. I said this last year and only a few people agreed with me, most condemned the thought that Bosh was not a "franchise guy".


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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Players who (other than Jose perhaps) never complimented Bosh's skills.

I don't have a problem with people saying that they'd just prefer to "go in another direction".... but the whole "Bosh never lead this team anywhere... he was too hard to build around" is total B.S. It's an excuse perpetrated by a GM who made A LOT of mistakes... mistakes that ended up blowing up in his face.
You're wrong here man, BC never used Bosh as an excuse he only said Bosh didn't try down the stretch. A sentiment that the majority of the people on the board seemed to agree with...

He wouldn't have gotten us anywhere. BC went the NY Rangers route and tried to buy talent, but as many teams are beginning to realize you can't do that now a days and expect to win quickly or consistently. OKC is the perfect example of how to build a team. You get your core youth through draft and then you add what you need (1-2 pieces) through trades ie: Perk and Nate Rob.

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@ Carp: When you consider that no one supports Rob Babcock for how he set back the franchise for what he got in return for Vince (and Rob got fired on Vince's birthday in 2006; a not so subtle message I think), and also consider that Chris was a better player in 2010 than Vince was in 2004, had made no aggressive trade demand, and yet Bryan still managed to get LESS in return for moving Chris than what Rob got for moving Vince, and even moved him to a better team (all that while Miami donates Micheal Beasley to the T'wolves for nothing; should make you wonder, eh?), and yet many of you still show support for him, then yes, I feel fully justified in stating that the majority in this thread are acting insane (or have problems w/their long term memory; I also gave that option).
Rob got shit-all back for Vince because Vince wanted out and was still under contract, a fat one at that. Bosh was free to go. We technically could have come away with nothing when he left. Sign & trades typically don't give teams fair value anyway. Getting our pick back and a TPE was decent considering the climate of last years Free Agency market.

Beasley was offered, we didn't take him because of BC's man love for Bargs, and as much as I don't like it, we just have to deal with that. Bargs is BC's project, and likely legacy in Toronto, if he's not resigned. Bargs, Amir, Ed Davis, Dorsey, Reggie and Beasley all on the same roster? Hello redundancy. Not to mention Beasley's reputation at the time was in the shits. He's also credited Johnny Flynn (a college friend and teammate) for the turn around in Minny. Something he wouldn't have had here.
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:48 AM   #71 (permalink)
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I humbly disagree, Duches.


Chris was free to go, yes. However, he reportedly got a max contract w/the Heat (making more than DWade). This cannot happen w/o a Sign-&-Trade. Thus Bryan had one serious peice of leverage in order to get more from the Heat, and it went unused (what's more, that pick we 'got back' should've never been given away to Miami in the 1st place, as it was a serious overpayment for Matrix Marion).

I disagree w/the logic of Bryan not taking Micheal due to his man-love for Bargs, as Bargs is a 7'1 250lbs C/PF and Micheal is a 6'8 240lbs PF/SF. W/their versatile skillsets, they would've developed chemistry rather quickly, especially due to the fact that Micheal is a lefty PF/SF, akin to Chris' offensive game (PF/C on defense, of course), who had great chemistry w/Andrea.

B/c Micheal is a PF/SF, their is no redundancy w/the names you mentioned (but Reggie & Dorsey on the same team is clearly redundant; no team needs even one of them, as far as winning is concerned), at least not position-wise. That'd be like saying James Johnson is redundant as he's a PF/SF as well - and I only hated that deal initially b/c I indeed thought he was here to be 3rd string behind Amir & Ed @ PF. The only redundancy w/Micheal (and James) is having too much youth and not enough quality veterans around them.

Regarding Micheal's reputation being shit, I look at every case individually, and didn't see anything that screamed to me that he's burned up numerous chances or wouldn't change. And like I said before, Coach Triano is the best in the league at developing young talent and 'reclaimation' projects, proving such ever since he got the gig and even before that, and Micheal's game is akin to Chris', whom Jay spent more time than anyone developing. Thus, all signals point to Micheal having a big year for us if we had him, especially w/how well all our young players get along, and the good character of them to provide a good locker room for Micheal's affable personality.

And even if Micheal wouldn't fit here due to character issues or game issues, he's still an asset, and we still got next to nothing in return for Chris. The least Bryan could've done is still get Micheal, if only to flip him to another team for another quality asset (flipping due to stemming from some possible character or game issues, which I don't see). The fact that this didn't happen is consistent w/all the other plethora of foolish, half-assed moves Bryan has authored every single year since summer 2007.

Last edited by bladeofBG; 04-12-2011 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:56 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Alright, I'm all caught up then!
Theres another reason in "There is noone better to take GM spot anyway"
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Old 04-12-2011, 03:49 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I humbly disagree, Duches.
Chris was free to go, yes. However, he reportedly got a max contract w/the Heat (making more than DWade). This cannot happen w/o a Sign-&-Trade. Thus Bryan had one serious peice of leverage in order to get more from the Heat, and it went unused (what's more, that pick we 'got back' should've never been given away to Miami in the 1st place, as it was a serious overpayment for Matrix Marion).

from what I heard he's being paid the same as lebron, 14.5 a year, if Wade is taking a "pay cut" that only means he's making 13.5 or 12.5, remember, this is HIS team first and foremost, not Bosh or Lebron's, he's making the "sacrifice". Bryan fucked up with the O'Neal experiment, no doubt, but you don't seem to realize that Miami had NOTHING we wanted. Plus your assessment of Beasley is flawed....

I disagree w/the logic of Bryan not taking Micheal due to his man-love for Bargs, as Bargs is a 7'1 250lbs C/PF and Micheal is a 6'8 240lbs PF/SF. W/their versatile skillsets, they would've developed chemistry rather quickly, especially due to the fact that Micheal is a lefty PF/SF, akin to Chris' offensive game (PF/C on defense, of course), who had great chemistry w/Andrea.

B/c Micheal is a PF/SF, their is no redundancy w/the names you mentioned (but Reggie & Dorsey on the same team is clearly redundant; no team needs even one of them, as far as winning is concerned), at least not position-wise. That'd be like saying James Johnson is redundant as he's a PF/SF as well - and I only hated that deal initially b/c I indeed thought he was here to be 3rd string behind Amir & Ed @ PF. The only redundancy w/Micheal (and James) is having too much youth and not enough quality veterans around them.

Regarding Micheal's reputation being shit, I look at every case individually, and didn't see anything that screamed to me that he's burned up numerous chances or wouldn't change. And like I said before, Coach Triano is the best in the league at developing young talent and 'reclaimation' projects, proving such ever since he got the gig and even before that, and Micheal's game is akin to Chris', whom Jay spent more time than anyone developing. Thus, all signals point to Micheal having a big year for us if we had him, especially w/how well all our young players get along, and the good character of them to provide a good locker room for Micheal's affable personality.

Bryan has an obsession with character. This has nothing to do with Triano, I was at a season ticket holders meeting just after Allen Iverson was traded to Detroit. Bryan was talking about how he wanted to bring in character guys etc etc. One of the people there asked why we didn't get him. Bryan laughed and said "What did I just say about character guys?"...

Aside from that, let me show you the redundancy of having Andrea and Michael on the same roster.

Beasley averaged 13.9 points and 5.5 rebounds during his rookie year, the next year with Miami he averaged 14.8 and 6.4. This year 19 and 5.6 with Minnesota after his rebirth.

Remind you of anyone's numbers?? Take a look at Andrea's numbers during those same seasons. In Michael's rookie year Andrea averaged 15.4 and 5.3, the next year 17.2 and 6.2 and then this year 21.4 and 5.2....

They have the same skill sets essentially, neither rebound particularly well and adding in Michael's demeanor and baggage Bryan didn't want to take the gamble. Like I said before, Michael credits a good portion of his turn around this season to (having a staff that believe in him etc etc) Johnny Flynn telling him to play like he did in college and encouraging him to go back to what he was doing before. I'm telling you he wouldn't have had that here. Regardless of what Triano did. Besides, Andrea and Micheal without a proper rebounding center? We would have the softest front court in the history of the NBA.


And even if Micheal wouldn't fit here due to character issues or game issues, he's still an asset, and we still got next to nothing in return for Chris. The least Bryan could've done is still get Micheal, if only to flip him to another team for another quality asset (flipping due to stemming from some possible character or game issues, which I don't see). The fact that this didn't happen is consistent w/all the other plethora of foolish, half-assed moves Bryan has authored every single year since summer 2007.

I am unsure how you can consider Beasley an asset? Minnesota literally got him for nothing. NOTHING. Two second rounders and bag of money. No one wanted him, us included. Bryan arguably could have asked for Chalmers or another Miami scrub, but why? He was going to hand the starting job to Jack anyway if the Jose deal didn't fall through. Beasley was not "flippable" at the time for the number of reasons we, along with 27 other teams, saw as too problematic to take a gamble on.
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Old 04-12-2011, 03:55 PM   #74 (permalink)
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However, it's not "plain and simple". Bosh is not a centerpiece of a team. No one seems to realize this... The guy is a good jumpshooter with wonky knees and mediocre defensive skills. How is this the guy we're going to build around?? Dirk can do a bit of everything, Duncan even in his old age is a beast. Garnett could be 40 and still ball because he'll just make you cry while you have the ball.

Bosh has NONE of these skill sets. Sure, he can get boards on a .500 team, but he's not exactly Dennis Rodman-ing in Miami (yes I'm making it a verb).

Eggs is completely correct. I said this last year and only a few people agreed with me, most condemned the thought that Bosh was not a "franchise guy".

You're wrong here man, BC never used Bosh as an excuse he only said Bosh didn't try down the stretch. A sentiment that the majority of the people on the board seemed to agree with...

He wouldn't have gotten us anywhere. BC went the NY Rangers route and tried to buy talent, but as many teams are beginning to realize you can't do that now a days and expect to win quickly or consistently. OKC is the perfect example of how to build a team. You get your core youth through draft and then you add what you need (1-2 pieces) through trades ie: Perk and Nate Rob.
Just so we're clear again 'trane.... it's posts like THIS one that make me rage.

Dirk can "do everything" yet Bosh can't?

Bosh doesn't rebound in MIA?

He "didn't try down the stretch" when he was here?


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Old 04-12-2011, 04:14 PM   #75 (permalink)
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just so we're clear again torap, i never really commented on any of that.

all i wanted to clear up was the notion that it is perfectly acceptable to think Bosh leaving was a positive if you take as a first principle that we needed to rebuild. that's all. going back to the rest of it is wasted on me because i don't care at all about a dirk-bosh comparison or whether or not anyone thinks he tried. he's gone. i think we're better for it because we can move forward and, although we may have to lose for a couple of years, we have a good opportunity to create balance in the future. the rest is just old news. there's really no need to get angry about anyone's opinion of chris bosh.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:17 PM   #76 (permalink)
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which is fair

but regardless

dirk >>>>>>>> bosh
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:46 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Re: Beasley discussion

- Flynn and Beasley didn't play together in college. They might be friends, and maybe they were teamates in another situation, but they went to different colleges. Flynn went to Syracuse.

I'm not nearly as pissed as I was last fall. I'm glad Derozan had plenty of touches during the second half of the year. In hindsight, I'm not sure that would have happened if Beasley was in Toronto. There might not have been enough ball for Bargs, Beasley and Derozan to all get ample touches. In an ideal situation, I would rather have Beasley and trade Bargs (and then use a more traditional center), but....that's life. I know Colangelo was not going to give up on Bargs without giving him at least one season to be the main guy. Given that scenario (stuck with Bargs for 2010/11), I'm now really happy that Derozan was next in line for touches. DD improved quicker than I thought he could. I thought 17 ppg would be his ceiling. Now, who knows?

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 04-12-2011 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:47 PM   #78 (permalink)
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which is fair

but regardless

dirk >>>>>>>> bosh
And I'd never disagree with that.... in spite of the fact that he's even worse than Bosh defensively.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:51 PM   #79 (permalink)
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just so we're clear again torap, i never really commented on any of that.

all i wanted to clear up was the notion that it is perfectly acceptable to think Bosh leaving was a positive if you take as a first principle that we needed to rebuild. that's all. going back to the rest of it is wasted on me because i don't care at all about a dirk-bosh comparison or whether or not anyone thinks he tried. he's gone. i think we're better for it because we can move forward and, although we may have to lose for a couple of years, we have a good opportunity to create balance in the future. the rest is just old news. there's really no need to get angry about anyone's opinion of chris bosh.
You're right.... I just find it annoying that people employ a double-standard when judging players' and teams' success.

The idea that any ONE player should be able to take a team to 50+ wins is ludicrous IMO.... there are isolated scenarios where it's happened, but it's the exception rather than the rule. Basketball is a TEAM game... if your TEAM isn't good enough as a whole, you're going nowhere regardless of how good your ONE star is.

I wish that more people would understand that.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:52 PM   #80 (permalink)
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And I'd never disagree with that.... in spite of the fact that he's even worse than Bosh defensively.
By how much, really? Splitting hairs there.
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