Derozan working with a coach on his dribling/handles - Page 9
Old 06-14-2014, 09:55 PM   #161 (permalink)
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There's just way too much looking for greener grass. Demar is still up for constant assesment. I see no problem with that, because he does still need to show that he can continue to grow with the team as a whole. But that doesn't mean he should be disqualified from being given the chance to show that, and frankly it's pretty much the same tank mindset that looks to bring in unproven talent in return for a guy that has proven to be a nice fit so far while not offering a lot of reasons to think he won't become more efficient and have more impact defensively.

deaner brings up a good point about his minutes. But he could have gone further with the point. In a ton of games he did prove to be quite efficient, while also looking to make other guys better. At points in fourth quarters he would take some poorer shots, and miss more than otherwise with fatigue taking some effect and defenses tightening up. He was also looked to as a guy that had to carry a bigger load in spite of his efficiency taking a hit, because there were not a lot of guys with good experience under pressure to help carry that load outside of Lowry, Salmons for a couple months, and Grievis for a couple months. At the same time it was hard not to notice that as his efficiency took a hit he did find other ways to make an impact. His defense was quite good in crunch time. He could be counted on to get to the line, which is invaluable in fourth quarters. And mentally he stayed strong, hitting a lot of timely shots and making more good decisions than bad.

So looking forward it is hard for me to see where this team fails to make a big jump once guys like Ross and Valančiūnas gain that much needed experience, and guys like Vasquez and Patterson are able to develop into their roles that much more reliably. The fact is that this team frayed quite a bit at the edges down the stretch as guys got knicked up and inexperience and lack of practice time showed their full effect. Demar did a hell of a job carrying the team under those circumstances. But i don't think anyone saw that as an ideal situation. Give all the new guys a full training camp, get the sophomores stronger physically, and suddenly you have a DeRozan that could fill a role where he is able to let the game come to him for a much greater percentage of his playing time, and impact the game in more ways. Again, if that fails to materialize, then you probably want to look at making moves. But the way i see it, there is the makings of a team that can really get it done playing as a team. Everyone buying in completely is an essential part of that, and DeMar and Lowry were the two guys that lead the way in getting that done. It was just the beginning. Let that buy in play out year after year and you get something special that can take on the Lebrons. The grass is pretty green here. Making overly critical value judgments at this point is not overly productive. Doing so could easily bite Masai in the ass as much as anything else.

You don't want this team to be on a treadmill right? Moving a guy that has shown he understands the team game, has committed himself to buying in to what is being built here step by step, and has sustained improvement since Casey arrived, for any number of players that might not fit or keep the fabric of the team as tightly knit, and you are likely going to see problems getting to that next level.
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:03 PM   #162 (permalink)
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@LX Well said!
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:16 PM   #163 (permalink)
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Well when we criticize Demar, we're all making false statements.

I think I need some time to wrap my head around that one.

We're bad, criticizing a player with such a complete game. How could we?
Demar is our one and only.

I knew being a tanker was going to get me in trouble.
Not even one member here said Demar is a complete player. Gotta love how you exaggerate things.

It was pretty obvious that MU wasn't planning to tank. Tanking can go either way. If you are lucky you can collect assets like OKC but if you are not you can end up like the Cavs. Tanking doesn't always work, but like LX said... The grass is always green over there...
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Old 06-15-2014, 12:04 AM   #164 (permalink)
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Not even one member here said Demar is a complete player. Gotta love how you exaggerate things.

It was pretty obvious that MU wasn't planning to tank. Tanking can go either way. If you are lucky you can collect assets like OKC but if you are not you can end up like the Cavs. Tanking doesn't always work, but like LX said... The grass is always green over there...
Well you missed the concept again. I never said he was a complete player, nor did any poster. I was being sarcastic, so you can call me that, after you incorrectly hung that on Dan.

Demar has flaws in his game. IF (I put it in capitals so you'll notice it) Masai decides to make a major move, other than Valanciunas, Demar is the asset that would net the greatest return. And NO, I'm not suggesting trading Valanciunas even though he might net even more than Demar. Despite the fact that I'm critical of Demar's game and don't think he's a vital piece to our ultimate goal , I've never said trade him for the sake of trading him. Every time, myself or some other poster suggest's trading him, you react , insisting we'll never get the value you seem to put on him. Frankly, Masai decides what value he should get IF(caps again) he moves Demar. If it doesn't meet your expectations, at least you'll know where Demar will be so you can follow his career( although you've said you're not really "a huge fan" of his, but those of us who criticize him are doing it just "to make a false statement").

Maybe you should trust Masai. He knows more than you.

BTW, I was the most insistent anti-tanker, just ask koolaid.Save your speech on what might or might not happen in tanking. It's been debated so much here that even the dead horse is begging for mercy.
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Old 06-15-2014, 12:30 AM   #165 (permalink)
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Not even one member here said Demar is a complete player. Gotta love how you exaggerate things.

It was pretty obvious that MU wasn't planning to tank. Tanking can go either way. If you are lucky you can collect assets like OKC but if you are not you can end up like the Cavs. Tanking doesn't always work, but like LX said... The grass is always green over there...
We should dial that back a bit, MU outright stated he was assessing the pros & cons between a "rebuild" (he had stated he doesn't like the connotations the word tank implies - deliberate losing is not the right culture and he's far too competitive for that) and simply adding pcs. Lowry could have gone to NY but the NY media frenzy agitated Dolan as he was perceived as getting fleeced again at MUs hand for a 3rd time - first with Melo then with Bargs and now potentially with Lowry. Things changed and MU decided to stand pat. After the deadline he still stated nothing has changed - he'll stay in assess mode. Nothing is obvious.

As for throwing out the word all star - well it's relative, we all know it's at times nothing more than a popularity contest. Shit, players are hurt or have done little prior to the game, still become all stars based on nothing more than fan popularity. Just because DD was selected, which is great btw, doesn't mean as much if he can't sniff an all nba team. Why, because he's still fairly a one dimensional player and struggles mightily against players that are not just all stars but players that are all team selections and proven two way players. That makes him great in the regular season where he faces them spread over an 82 game season but when it counts he struggles mightily. It's not an indictment on my part that he's a bad player, not at all, just a statistical fact. Now the team is at the point were they can scratch out a lower seed but become exposed in the playoffs. Couple that with the difficulty with getting FAs and the result is, if you want high level talent the team needs to rebuild in the draft - that boat has somewhat departed the docks - at least this year.

The Raptors won't go far when it counts with DD leading this team. That doesn't mean we're saying he's crap just a statistical reality based on his play over a 5 year span. I don't want to trade DD for a so called all star either but what I would like to see are players that can contribute and elevate the team. There are players that are not all stars but are proven to be better 2 way players in both conferences that potentially could be had though even that is difficult as the team had few tradeable assets to begin with.

What I can see now is MU retaining current assets, drafting wisely, add some more pcs and picks. We can then enjoy the ride of the coming season, squeak into the playoffs, get knocked out in the first or second round. Then the team can rebuild in the summer of 2015 when MU has several assets to work with, cap space, picks and the allure of Drake marketing and a perceived rabid fan base.

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Old 06-15-2014, 12:46 AM   #166 (permalink)
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There's just way too much looking for greener grass. Demar is still up for constant assesment. I see no problem with that, because he does still need to show that he can continue to grow with the team as a whole. But that doesn't mean he should be disqualified from being given the chance to show that, and frankly it's pretty much the same tank mindset that looks to bring in unproven talent in return for a guy that has proven to be a nice fit so far while not offering a lot of reasons to think he won't become more efficient and have more impact defensively.

deaner brings up a good point about his minutes. But he could have gone further with the point. In a ton of games he did prove to be quite efficient, while also looking to make other guys better. At points in fourth quarters he would take some poorer shots, and miss more than otherwise with fatigue taking some effect and defenses tightening up. He was also looked to as a guy that had to carry a bigger load in spite of his efficiency taking a hit, because there were not a lot of guys with good experience under pressure to help carry that load outside of Lowry, Salmons for a couple months, and Grievis for a couple months. At the same time it was hard not to notice that as his efficiency took a hit he did find other ways to make an impact. His defense was quite good in crunch time. He could be counted on to get to the line, which is invaluable in fourth quarters. And mentally he stayed strong, hitting a lot of timely shots and making more good decisions than bad.

So looking forward it is hard for me to see where this team fails to make a big jump once guys like Ross and Valančiūnas gain that much needed experience, and guys like Vasquez and Patterson are able to develop into their roles that much more reliably. The fact is that this team frayed quite a bit at the edges down the stretch as guys got knicked up and inexperience and lack of practice time showed their full effect. Demar did a hell of a job carrying the team under those circumstances. But i don't think anyone saw that as an ideal situation. Give all the new guys a full training camp, get the sophomores stronger physically, and suddenly you have a DeRozan that could fill a role where he is able to let the game come to him for a much greater percentage of his playing time, and impact the game in more ways. Again, if that fails to materialize, then you probably want to look at making moves. But the way i see it, there is the makings of a team that can really get it done playing as a team. Everyone buying in completely is an essential part of that, and DeMar and Lowry were the two guys that lead the way in getting that done. It was just the beginning. Let that buy in play out year after year and you get something special that can take on the Lebrons. The grass is pretty green here. Making overly critical value judgments at this point is not overly productive. Doing so could easily bite Masai in the ass as much as anything else.

You don't want this team to be on a treadmill right? Moving a guy that has shown he understands the team game, has committed himself to buying in to what is being built here step by step, and has sustained improvement since Casey arrived, for any number of players that might not fit or keep the fabric of the team as tightly knit, and you are likely going to see problems getting to that next level.
A lot of good points LX. The team game of San Antonio seems to be the template to follow, and as much as Casey accomplished this year, there are more pages from the Popovich manual he should follow. We did get ragged around the edges towards the end of the year, and a lot of that has to go to the minutes we played our starters. Casey needs to cut back on the minutes he plays Lowry, Demar and AJ. He needs to utilize the bench even more, force feeding them minutes. It might cost us on our regular season record, but we would be deeper and stronger come playoff time. To do that, Masai has to add to our depth, and Casey has to trust the Fields and Hansbrough's more. And even though, generally the team has bought in, the buy in isn't a 100% commitment of trust between the teammates yet. We still have too much sticking of the ball. I know I'll get howls, but the worst stickers are Demar and Val. Demar because he's prone to relying first on his own skill-set, Val because he's still uncertain about what to do, he's over-anxious to prove that he can be a big-time piece and he's uncertain that if he moves the ball. he'll get it back. And Casey should also start using another Spurs trait- maximum 2 dribbles before you move the ball, and ideally the pass should be made in .5 secs. We've have too many plays that used the majority of the shot clock- that means too much ball-sticking, and often results in a poor shot choice or a late in the shot clock turnover. The Spurs have demonstrated team basket ball to a T. Tapes of those games could be Casey's teachung tool.
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Old 06-15-2014, 04:18 AM   #167 (permalink)
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what false statement are you talking about?
I'm not a GM and I have no idea what is realistic market value for Derozan, but if weHell with all that extra money we could go after Parsons. could get a return similar to Jrue Holiday trade, it would be awesome. It would also free up capspace.
What would be the point of that?

Is Parsons going to come here and avg. 35pts/gm?

We'd simply be trading one young star for another and 20 games in people would be dissecting his game and looking to deal him too.
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Old 06-15-2014, 08:40 AM   #168 (permalink)
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What would be the point of that?

Is Parsons going to come here and avg. 35pts/gm?

We'd simply be trading one young star for another and 20 games in people would be dissecting his game and looking to deal him too.
well said. and that star will likely need more than what demar's making to get him here, and we don't know if he'll even like the place, or just bolt at the end of his contract. Not to mention you're trading a piece of the core so outright your losing chemistry, and we don't know how his mentality will fit in with the core minus demar. There's too many uncertainties, just to go for a guy who's very similar to Demar at this stage. You don't make changes for the sake of making a change, it's not the BC era anymore.
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Old 06-15-2014, 09:29 AM   #169 (permalink)
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Pzabby I dont know if you didn't read the previous posts and just jump in because you saw Demar and trade, or you are just trolling, neither would surprise me
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Old 06-15-2014, 09:41 AM   #170 (permalink)
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What would be the point of that?

Is Parsons going to come here and avg. 35pts/gm?

We'd simply be trading one young star for another and 20 games in people would be dissecting his game and looking to deal him too.
Its not all about scoring points, and its not like DD is going to average 35
And no we would be trading young star for picks and clearing a bit of cap to sign another
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Old 06-15-2014, 11:33 AM   #171 (permalink)
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Its not all about scoring points, and its not like DD is going to average 35
And no we would be trading young star for picks and clearing a bit of cap to sign another
You are just proving my point. I am not against for trading DD if we haul major return but to trade DD and get Parsons? He is a good player but is he going to make us significant better? Is he even going to make us better at all? It's a treadmill move. I have not seen one member here who thinks DD is a complete player. Bringing players like Parsons or Evan Turner as an example would be the classic move of how to change pieces that won't make use better. Remember how people here wanted Wilson Chandler like he was the closest thing to an elite SF, where is he now?
Also, cap space is important but this franchise has a poor record when it comes to attracting FA which is a painful topic altogether. I rather have a home grown product than hoping we will sign a quality FA.

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Old 06-15-2014, 11:43 AM   #172 (permalink)
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In the proposed scenario we would get two first round picks, that you seem to ignore all together. I think Parsons would make us better, but thats jus my opinion
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Old 06-15-2014, 12:23 PM   #173 (permalink)
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In the proposed scenario we would get two first round picks, that you seem to ignore all together. I think Parsons would make us better, but thats jus my opinion
Houston holds the 25th and 42nd picks in this year's draft. So basically you are suggesting DD for Parsons, their 25th and 42nd. while Parson is under a dirt cheap contract during 14'-15' he will be a URF past next season and will look for a major raise. Also, The salaries don't much so bringing back dead weight is a must. I still don't see the point behind it.
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Old 06-15-2014, 01:05 PM   #174 (permalink)
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Houston holds the 25th and 42nd picks in this year's draft. So basically you are suggesting DD for Parsons, their 25th and 42nd. while Parson is under a dirt cheap contract during 14'-15' he will be a URF past next season and will look for a major raise. Also, The salaries don't much so bringing back dead weight is a must. I still don't see the point behind it.
No I'm not, it has nothing to do with Houston, how about you go back and read the whole thing again..
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Old 06-15-2014, 01:45 PM   #175 (permalink)
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what false statement are you talking about?
I'm not a GM and I have no idea what is realistic market value for Derozan, but if we could get a return similar to Jrue Holiday trade, it would be awesome. It would also free up capspace. Hell with all that extra money we could go after Parsons.
You're the one who mentioned Parsons, not me. If you are talking about bringing him in as a free agent rest assure he will get multiple offers. So it's trading our best player *under contract* in order to free cap just so we could maybe sign Parsons which I am not even sure is an upgrade to our team. How's that make sense?
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Old 06-15-2014, 02:14 PM   #176 (permalink)
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In the proposed scenario we would get two first round picks, that you seem to ignore all together. I think Parsons would make us better, but thats jus my opinion
Makes sense but is there a team that has 2 available-to-trade first round picks this year + decent pieces or do we need to think of one pick and a player this year and one pick next year.

One team might be OKC because they have 2 late firsts this year. Maybe we could seduce them into the 2 firsts and Reggie Jackson for Demar, but I think they'd turn it down.

Another might be philly, using Thaddeus Young.
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Old 06-15-2014, 02:29 PM   #177 (permalink)
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Makes sense but is there a team that has 2 available-to-trade first round picks this year + decent pieces or do we need to think of one pick and a player this year and one pick next year.

One team might be OKC because they have 2 late firsts this year. Maybe we could seduce them into the 2 firsts and Reggie Jackson for Demar, but I think they'd turn it down.

Another might be philly, using Thaddeus Young.
Don't think this theorethical trade should be limited to this years picks.
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Old 06-15-2014, 02:38 PM   #178 (permalink)
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Don't think this theorethical trade should be limited to this years picks.
That would increase the number of potential trading partners.

Maybe something with SAC- their first this year #8, their first next year and (though I doubt they would bite) MacLemore. At 8 Vonleh might be available and would team well with Val- could become a killer front court.
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Old 06-15-2014, 02:47 PM   #179 (permalink)
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You're the one who mentioned Parsons, not me. If you are talking about bringing him in as a free agent rest assure he will get multiple offers. So it's trading our best player *under contract* in order to free cap just so we could maybe sign Parsons which I am not even sure is an upgrade to our team. How's that make sense?
no one is saying to dump him for cap space,ffs this conversation is like pulling teeth. I'm done
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Old 06-15-2014, 02:54 PM   #180 (permalink)
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no one is saying to dump him for cap space,ffs this conversation is like pulling teeth. I'm done

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