Derozan has got to go - Page 4
Old 03-19-2014, 04:22 PM   #61 (permalink)
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FYI,

since Rudy was traded and Demar became "the man"

FG: 43%
PPG: 23.1
APG: 4.3
RPG: 4.7
STL: 1.2
FTA: 8.4 (at 82%) - that's elite

Aside from his poor 3-point shooting, if someone showed me those numbers before the season started and asked me to guess who was putting those stats up, I would have probably said James Harden. Harden is still better than Demar, but he makes MUCH more $ for somewhat similar production.

If MU does trade Demar, he better do it for something nice.
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Old 03-19-2014, 04:24 PM   #62 (permalink)
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No it's called trading high. I'm not necessarily saying we should trade him but if he is ever going to be traded it would be this summer. Let's face it, if this team is to contend trades will have to be part of the solution and DD is one of the biggest pieces we have. And with Ross there DD is more expendable imo. That being said, it's all relative to what offers are being made. You don't trade Derozan unless it makes us one of the best teams in the EC (long term).
Agreed, trade anyone to makes us better. The comment wasn't for you. It was for the DD is cocky so he has to go.
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Old 03-19-2014, 04:24 PM   #63 (permalink)
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If MU does trade Demar, he better do it for something nice.
That's a given. You don't trade your all-star player for prospects and a pick. Unless you plan on tanking, which we aren't doing.
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Old 03-19-2014, 06:17 PM   #64 (permalink)
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That's a given. You don't trade your all-star player for prospects and a pick. Unless you plan on tanking, which we aren't doing.
Or if you have a player that HAS to go.
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Old 03-19-2014, 06:45 PM   #65 (permalink)
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That's a given. You don't trade your all-star player for prospects and a pick. Unless you plan on tanking, which we aren't doing.
yet
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Old 03-19-2014, 06:46 PM   #66 (permalink)
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yet
i don't think tanking is in MU/TL's DNA
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:31 PM   #67 (permalink)
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i don't think tanking is in MU/TL's DNA
I think if the team sucked after the Rudy trade MU would have easily tanked.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:37 PM   #68 (permalink)
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we don't build around him, but he's a compliment to a team with a true "the man"
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Old 03-19-2014, 09:36 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I dont think he HAS to go, but I've been saying for a while that if the right trade comes along in the off season I wouldnt hesitate to move Demar, since he would bring back a nice package and I think he's our move 'moveable' player in terms of getting value back for what's given up.

I think he'll be exposed in the playoffs when the defence is tighter and more physical. Due to his lack of handles he'll be exposed as an inefficient midrange jumpshooter.

He's improved this year, but not as much as everyone seems to think because of his numbers. I don't think he'll ever be a primary option on a contending team with his playstyle, and his defence is still bad. He still has a long ways to go as a player obviously, and he's still young, but I'd prefer to trade him while his value is at its peak. I just don't see him getting to that next level to where he demands double teams, and is a more than passable defender, and if we were to lower his usage(which will have to happen as JV develops), I think his game will severely suffer. I don't think his offensive game is conducive to being a 3rd or 4th option, to where he would only get 10-13 shots per night because he isn't really a spot up option.

I'm sure many will disagree with this thinking as Demar has won many people over this year, but I still don't think we're going anywhere with him as the number 1 option, nor do I think he'd play well in a reduced role if we were to focus more on our pick and roll game and involving JV more in the next 3 years.
the best player on the team is Lowry. Period.

Or we could trade JV for a top 10 centre today and compete. Yes.. its DDs fault we will eventually lose in the playoffs. I've pretty much lost all respect for you at this point if you think DD is the reason we wont win in the playoffs. the reason is we have two sophmores and your boy is the biggest. so lets keep thinking only about the playoffs too. sigh.
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:01 PM   #70 (permalink)
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the best player on the team is Lowry. Period.

Or we could trade JV for a top 10 centre today and compete. Yes.. its DDs fault we will eventually lose in the playoffs. I've pretty much lost all respect for you at this point if you think DD is the reason we wont win in the playoffs. the reason is we have two sophmores and your boy is the biggest. so lets keep thinking only about the playoffs too. sigh.
You're twisting my words. I never said Demar would be the reason we'd lose in the playoffs, I never even talked about us winning or losing because of his production, or in general. I said that I think he's going to struggle in the playoffs because of his playing style. That's still to be determined obviously, but I'd put good money on it.

I don't think there's any doubt that JV and Ross will have moments where their lack of experience shows, but I'm hoping that their young legs, improved play, and increased playing time give them the confidence to step up when it matters come playoff time. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if JV isn't playing extended minutes come playoff time, due to his improved play(which has been the case lately, and hopefully continues), I dont see us winning a round playing a lot of small ball.

I know Lowry is our best player, but Demar has been our primary scoring option for most of the year, when I've said many times that I think we should run even more screen roll with Lowry and JV/Amir because it's probably our highest scoring play efficiency wise.
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:20 PM   #71 (permalink)
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You're twisting my words. I never said Demar would be the reason we'd lose in the playoffs, I never even talked about us winning or losing because of his production, or in general. I said that I think he's going to struggle in the playoffs because of his playing style. That's still to be determined obviously, but I'd put good money on it.

I don't think there's any doubt that JV and Ross will have moments where their lack of experience shows, but I'm hoping that their young legs, improved play, and increased playing time give them the confidence to step up when it matters come playoff time. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if JV isn't playing extended minutes come playoff time, due to his improved play(which has been the case lately, and hopefully continues), I dont see us winning a round playing a lot of small ball.

I know Lowry is our best player, but Demar has been our primary scoring option for most of the year, when I've said many times that I think we should run even more screen roll with Lowry and JV/Amir because it's probably our highest scoring play efficiency wise.
There's no way we run standardly run SAR with JV since centres don't follow him that far out and he has little speed, and unless Lowry totally sheds the PG and thats not Lowry's game. I think the reason we haven't done that as much with Amir is because Amir has no ups and his ankle has been crap for 3 months now although it works better.

Maybe you would prefer Calderon.

Our offense is fine. If you want to hack on DD talk abotu defense because that's the only reason we lose... except rebounding when we have no bigs left.

And the reality is we could trade JV for a Gasol or Lopez (salaries excluded) and be right in the mix this year. MU doesn't do it... but just saying.

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Old 03-19-2014, 10:40 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Didn\t think they were going to win.

Nice to see they can switch to defensive "go time" in the fourth without all their usual suspects.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:00 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Yeah because you've never heard Demar talk about how he's the man? Fuck outta here.
I've heard him talk about working hard and trying to lead. Iin terms of establishing a case of Demar loving himself and being super egoticstical, by all means; please share some quotes from Demar himself.

It would make a better argument than you saying you believe you know what Demar believes about himself.
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Old 03-20-2014, 12:55 AM   #74 (permalink)
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like BDL says, demar's greatest challenge will be the playoffs - it's almost certain that he will struggle the question is how will he handle it and how will he fare defensively. He's never going to be good enough to offset terrible defense, almost nobody is (you'd need nowitzki or nash type of talent and both those guys were better defenders than demar in their prime).

most will agree demar can't be the best player on a title team, that much is obvious. It's also pretty clear that this team can only achieve success within a detroit pistons framework. And the reason pistons were able to do it is because they had a complete defense with no weak spots and 4 pretty good offensive guys.

So, lacking a superstar, we need 5 two-way strong mid-range guys in the starting lineup. the other 4 either are, or are showing potential to become that. THe only question mark is demar, will his defense ever be above average or he'll be exposed badly in the playoffs. Because offensively, he can evolve in a complimentary role I think - once his corner 3pt shot gets around 40% (he's not that far off).
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Old 03-20-2014, 02:07 AM   #75 (permalink)
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trane the fact that I made this thread before we lost the Hawks game shows you that its something I've been believing for a while now and not simply the result of this one game.

there have been many many games where demar has shown me how bad he is. he is not, nor will he ever be "the man"
I'd say it differently but I agree...I feel like a team would jump on his potential in return for a high draft pick or something. Just my opinion but, Lowry has to be the man...DD is taking shots from Ros who I feel has more promise. Sell high and fill a void.
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Old 03-20-2014, 03:53 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Trade DD or not to trade him, That is the question ?
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Old 03-20-2014, 04:24 AM   #77 (permalink)
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like BDL says, demar's greatest challenge will be the playoffs - it's almost certain that he will struggle the question is how will he handle it and how will he fare defensively. He's never going to be good enough to offset terrible defense, almost nobody is (you'd need nowitzki or nash type of talent and both those guys were better defenders than demar in their prime).

most will agree demar can't be the best player on a title team, that much is obvious. It's also pretty clear that this team can only achieve success within a detroit pistons framework. And the reason pistons were able to do it is because they had a complete defense with no weak spots and 4 pretty good offensive guys.

So, lacking a superstar, we need 5 two-way strong mid-range guys in the starting lineup. the other 4 either are, or are showing potential to become that. THe only question mark is demar, will his defense ever be above average or he'll be exposed badly in the playoffs. Because offensively, he can evolve in a complimentary role I think - once his corner 3pt shot gets around 40% (he's not that far off).
nowitski and nash, even in their primes, were constantly made a case for being some of the worst defenders at their positions. It's a huge reason why nash never won a ring, apart from d'antoni.

in his first year, noone thought demar would ever have a decent shot from anywhere outside 10 feet, and now he's one of the best midrange shooters in the league.

in his second year, no one thought he could take his offence away from a strict slash and midrange game, and he added a post game which is one of the best in sg in the league.

noone ever thought he'd be even a decent 3 pt shooter, and he's hovering around .300 this season. No world beater, but guess what, MJ shot around that for his career too. Not saying he'll be MJ but their hard work and style of game are damn similar.

why is it so hard to see he'll be even an average defender? He puts in the work, and defence is one of the last things to come. He's 24 for fucks sake!
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Old 03-20-2014, 05:49 AM   #78 (permalink)
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nowitski and nash, even in their primes, were constantly made a case for being some of the worst defenders at their positions. It's a huge reason why nash never won a ring, apart from d'antoni.

in his first year, noone thought demar would ever have a decent shot from anywhere outside 10 feet, and now he's one of the best midrange shooters in the league.

in his second year, no one thought he could take his offence away from a strict slash and midrange game, and he added a post game which is one of the best in sg in the league.

noone ever thought he'd be even a decent 3 pt shooter, and he's hovering around .300 this season. No world beater, but guess what, MJ shot around that for his career too. Not saying he'll be MJ but their hard work and style of game are damn similar.

why is it so hard to see he'll be even an average defender? He puts in the work, and defence is one of the last things to come. He's 24 for fucks sake!
Highly doubt that DD will ever become 3pt shooter that Jordan was, but it doesn't matter really. Because what separates them the most is that MJ had very very very good handles, thats why he was able to get his shots off at will. Demar doesn't have the creativity or ball skills to do that. If he continues to work hard his handles will be average at best. That's why saying his game is similar to MJ, Wade or Kobe is just trolling.
He can become average defender, but I wouldn't bet on it though. I guess I'll trust you on that one, you were spot on when said that Bargs is not a bad defender..
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Old 03-20-2014, 09:57 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Highly doubt that DD will ever become 3pt shooter that Jordan was, but it doesn't matter really. Because what separates them the most is that MJ had very very very good handles, thats why he was able to get his shots off at will. Demar doesn't have the creativity or ball skills to do that. If he continues to work hard his handles will be average at best. That's why saying his game is similar to MJ, Wade or Kobe is just trolling.
He can become average defender, but I wouldn't bet on it though. I guess I'll trust you on that one, you were spot on when said that Bargs is not a bad defender..
Agree with it all but one thing. People keep saying but I don't see it. For Demar's usage his handle is not bad. Yes he turns the ball over and yes its frustrating, but it seems like more to us because we are Raptors fans, but he turns the ball over less than lots of similar usage players. Kobe for example turns the ball over far more. I think he's already average. thoughts?
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Old 03-20-2014, 10:02 AM   #80 (permalink)
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Highly doubt that DD will ever become 3pt shooter that Jordan was, but it doesn't matter really. Because what separates them the most is that MJ had very very very good handles, thats why he was able to get his shots off at will. Demar doesn't have the creativity or ball skills to do that. If he continues to work hard his handles will be average at best. That's why saying his game is similar to MJ, Wade or Kobe is just trolling.
He can become average defender, but I wouldn't bet on it though. I guess I'll trust you on that one, you were spot on when said that Bargs is not a bad defender..
your doubt is based on what? he's slowly improved on it each season he's been in the league.

I never said he'll be as good as jordan, and if that's all that'll separate demar from jordan, at a 9 mil/year salary? sign me up.

i'd say he's already average at defending. And yeah, way to completely misquote me. I said Bargnani is an average to good man to man, 1v1, in the post, defender. And he is. his length and mobility for his size gives him that.
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