Derozan has got to go - Page 3
Old 03-19-2014, 09:49 AM   #41 (permalink)
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We must be watching different games then. :cookie: In the ones I saw so far, the only thing DD creates is contested, off balanced shot for himself.
He created an easy layup for Jonas off of penetration last night. It was a nice pass. You must have missed that one. You must have missed the other 5 assists he had last night as well. Maybe you're playing video games at the same time or something.
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:01 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Did i ridicule you? And yet you answer none of my questions. It would be nice if you helped us see what you mean. Instead you throw a bunch of emotional blanket statements at us, and suggest in the game thread that DeMar is like Harold Miner, which is obviously just ridiculous.
I may be biased against Demar but I will try my best to help you see why that is so.

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-Where are you seeing all this struggling?
It seems that whenever we need a big basket from Demar Derozan he either folds under pressure and turns the ball over, or takes a terrible shot. The problem is every now and then his terrible shots fall. For example, against Golden State the other day he took a very very bad shot in a fadeaway deep two and he hit it. The issue with these shots going in is that it creates a false illusion for Demar that he is a good shooter and that he should continue to shoot tough contested twos. He is struggling with making the right basketball play, he is struggling with his handle, and he struggles under pressure more often than not.

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-Any player could be traded to male this team better. Why do you need to believe it has to be one particular guy?
I believe Demar has to be the guy simply because out of all our guys his value will probably be highest this off-season. Also, he plays a position where we already have a young player who can immediately step in and develop with heavy minutes. Lastly, trading Demar will open up more possessions for not only Ross, but JV as well to further develop his game.

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-explain how his numbers are inflated.
He's shooting 43%. He is inefficient.

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-does he really need a lot of shots to be effective? He has become more efficient this season, and does make other players around him better. You have seen that haven't you?
He has gotten slightly more efficient but overall I think his improvement does not outweigh the negatives. He still takes bad shots, he still takes shots away from better shooters, and he still isn't as good as he thinks he is.

I think what would really make the players around him better is more possessions for them and less possessions for him.

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-his defense is bad? You must have really hated Ross' defense tonight.
His defense is atrocious. It's not even about one game, he's been bad defensively his whole career.

The fact that he goes into the offseason and comes back without getting better defensively shows you where his head is at as far as what kind of player he sees himself as. Ross is only a sophomore and seems like he is better defensively now than Demar will ever be.

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-where is this backseat? DeMar is a team player. You seem to be entirely blind to that somehow. He has had plenty of games where he has taken the backseat and gotten a win and was happy.
I don't think Demar is really a team player, not nearly as much as you give him credit for.

I see Demar as a player who really BELIEVES he is the star that deserves that last shot. I don't think he likes giving the last shot to anyone else.

I get this impression from the way he carries himself on the court (body language, etc) and also the interviews and post game stuff I hear.

Take for example this interview from Lowry

Quote:
“I don’t think I’m a star,” said Lowry. “I can’t compare myself to Vince (Carter). I can’t compare myself to (Chris) Bosh. I’m just a guy with a great group around me. I think DeMar (DeRozan) is the star. Me, personally, I’m just a guy who runs this team and is very passionate about winning.
DeMar stands by Lowry while Lowry makes these ridiculous comparisons and goofily agrees to them. His ego is further fed, and he ends up taking dumb shots thinking he is the "star".

That's just one interview excerpt but this is a trend, Lowry even during all-star selections was talking about how Demar was the all-star and not him. Demar was saying stuff like, "I know I'm gonna be there but it would be cool if Kyle was there too"

Even Casey talks about how Demar is "our guy" and we are gonna ride with him, etc. Just feeding Demar late game possessions no matter how bad he has been playing.

This cockiness and confidence he has rubs me the wrong way entirely, especially considering how unfounded it is.

I really hope Masai can find a good destination for Demar and he has a good rest of his career somewhere else.

Last edited by Thug; 03-19-2014 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:07 AM   #43 (permalink)
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man, there is realy some DD haters !

BUt mainly, i will say there is people afraid of player in this team with success.
DD isn't perfect for sure, now aside of that there isn't that many sg better than him.
and i don't want to trade him and go back 5 years ago and rebuild again.

oh, and by the way, DD isn't lebron and i don't think he believe he is.
maybe your expectation are too high for your own good. Only 24 and he hasn't mature enough. that isn't a reason to trough him under the bus.

i really never saw him take charges before. during the last 10 games we can see him put his body ala Lowry to take charges. he will continue to evolve.
for sure, i agrre he will never be (never say never) a top defender, but i sure can see him become better in the next 2 years.
alos let's put all this team in the playoffs, get experience, and all of them will have a better understanding of what they should do to be better.

stop complaining all the time about our best player when they are in some sort of a slump.

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Old 03-19-2014, 10:16 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Thug... Expect a call any day now from MU. There's rumblings that assistant GM job is becoming available and I'm pretty sure your at the top of MU's very short list. Keep the phone lines clear! :mu:
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:21 AM   #45 (permalink)
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I may be biased against Demar but I will try my best to help you see why that is so.



It seems that whenever we need a big basket from Demar Derozan he either folds under pressure and turns the ball over, or takes a terrible shot. The problem is every now and then his terrible shots fall. For example, against Golden State the other day he took a very very bad shot in a fadeaway deep two and he hit it. The issue with these shots going in is that it creates a false illusion for Demar that he is a good shooter and that he should continue to shoot tough contested twos. He is struggling with making the right basketball play, he is struggling with his handle, and he struggles under pressure more often than not.



I believe Demar has to be the guy simply because out of all our guys his value will probably be highest this off-season. Also, he plays a position where we already have a young player who can immediately step in and develop with heavy minutes. Lastly, trading Demar will open up more possessions for not only Ross, but JV as well to further develop his game.



He's shooting 43%. He is inefficient.



He has gotten slightly more efficient but overall I think his improvement does not outweigh the negatives. He still takes bad shots, he still takes shots away from better shooters, and he still isn't as good as he thinks he is.

I think what would really make the players around him better is more possessions for them and less possessions for him.



His defense is atrocious. It's not even about one game, he's been bad defensively his whole career.

The fact that he goes into the offseason and comes back without getting better defensively shows you where his head is at as far as what kind of player he sees himself as. Ross is only a sophomore and seems like he is better defensively now than Demar will ever be.



I don't think Demar is really a team player, not nearly as much as you give him credit for.

I see Demar as a player who really BELIEVES he is the star that deserves that last shot. I don't think he likes giving the last shot to anyone else.

I get this impression from the way he carries himself on the court (body language, etc) and also the interviews and post game stuff I hear.

Take for example this interview from Lowry



DeMar stands by Lowry while Lowry makes these ridiculous comparisons and goofily agrees to them. His ego is further fed, and he ends up taking dumb shots thinking he is the "star".

That's just one interview excerpt but this is a trend, Lowry even during all-star selections was talking about how Demar was the all-star and not him. Demar was saying stuff like, "I know I'm gonna be there but it would be cool if Kyle was there too"

Even Casey talks about how Demar is "our guy" and we are gonna ride with him, etc. Just feeding Demar late game possessions no matter how bad he has been playing.

This cockiness and confidence he has rubs me the wrong way entirely, especially considering how unfounded it is.

I really hope Masai can find a good destination for Demar and he has a good rest of his career somewhere else.
My favourite part of this post is how Thug uses quotes from other people as examples of Demar's confidence and 'cockiness'. It's so bad it's good.
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:28 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Thug... Expect a call any day now from MU. There's rumblings that assistant GM job is becoming available and I'm pretty sure your at the top of MU's very short list. Keep the phone lines clear! :mu:
MU and I are on the same page, watch.

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My favourite part of this post is how Thug uses quotes from other people as examples of Demar's confidence and 'cockiness'. It's so bad it's good.
Yeah because you've never heard Demar talk about how he's the man? Fuck outta here.
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Old 03-19-2014, 10:37 AM   #47 (permalink)
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We must be watching different games then. :cookie: In the ones I saw so far, the only thing DD creates is contested, off balanced shot for himself. And I do understand however, that a part of it is due to his poor passing skills, he is afraid to make a turnover, so instead he just takes a bad shot. He has been in this league for a while now and while his shot gotten somewhat better, his passing ability has not improved at all. I do not even think he finds it a crucial part of his game to spend time on.
And yes, if your best scorer can not adjust and make plays for others, instead rushes things and try to score every possible and impossible position, bench him. It is all about winning, if someone thinks otherwise, he should not be a part of the team.
You're not watching the games if you hold that opinion. He's often driving the lane and creating open looks for his teammates. The JV pass is one example. The other was in OT when he drew two, three defenders at him and kicked the ball out to a wide-open Salmons, who hit the 3. His playmaking is far more superior this year than last year, and it isn't even close. Since the Gay trade, he's averaging well over 4 assists a game (something 4.5 or so), which is pretty solid, especially since he's not the primary ballhandler. Dwyane Wade is averaging 4.9 assists per game as an comparison.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:22 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Most. Ridiculous. Thread. Ever.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:25 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Most. Ridiculous. Thread. Ever.
Ever? There have been some real dandies of the years. Ridiculous, sure.......but ever?
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:30 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Ever? There have been some real dandies of the years. Ridiculous, sure.......but ever?
Yes, jeff. Ever. Since the dawn of civilization. Smithsonian is already investigating transfer to their facility servers.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:32 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Yes, jeff. Ever. Since the dawn of civilization. Smithsonian is already investigating transfer to their facility servers.
Oh, ok thanks for clarifying. :mu:
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:00 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Well he has made some strange decisions in the clutch. Part of the learning curve of playing meaningful games! Go raps
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:43 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Most. Ridiculous. Thread. Ever.
I think so

really it's to early to say, in the playoffs is where it counts. If DD plays good in the playoffs then it works out both ways, his value increases where we could either trade or keep him. But rite now it's too soon to say "has to go" we haven't played in May in 5 years... slow down there

I remember when Raps played Detroit in the first round, Vince sat out that playoffs.. and we took Detroit to game 5, who was led by Jerry Stackhouse, from that series pistons knew Jerry wasn't that guy, and traded him in the off-season for Richard Hamilton. We have to see what DD will bring first, then decide afterwards
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:43 PM   #54 (permalink)
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I dont think he HAS to go, but I've been saying for a while that if the right trade comes along in the off season I wouldnt hesitate to move Demar, since he would bring back a nice package and I think he's our move 'moveable' player in terms of getting value back for what's given up.

I think he'll be exposed in the playoffs when the defence is tighter and more physical. Due to his lack of handles he'll be exposed as an inefficient midrange jumpshooter.

He's improved this year, but not as much as everyone seems to think because of his numbers. I don't think he'll ever be a primary option on a contending team with his playstyle, and his defence is still bad. He still has a long ways to go as a player obviously, and he's still young, but I'd prefer to trade him while his value is at its peak. I just don't see him getting to that next level to where he demands double teams, and is a more than passable defender, and if we were to lower his usage(which will have to happen as JV develops), I think his game will severely suffer. I don't think his offensive game is conducive to being a 3rd or 4th option, to where he would only get 10-13 shots per night because he isn't really a spot up option.

I'm sure many will disagree with this thinking as Demar has won many people over this year, but I still don't think we're going anywhere with him as the number 1 option, nor do I think he'd play well in a reduced role if we were to focus more on our pick and roll game and involving JV more in the next 3 years.
My thoughts exactly
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:50 PM   #55 (permalink)
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LOL! Demar is so selfish yo... look at him compare him to VC... I mean Lowry compare him to VC. Demar is so cocky, how dare he do that! :mu:
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:51 PM   #56 (permalink)
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So we should trade him because the team has confidence in him, genius.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:55 PM   #57 (permalink)
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So we should trade him because the team has confidence in him, genius.
No it's called trading high. I'm not necessarily saying we should trade him but if he is ever going to be traded it would be this summer. Let's face it, if this team is to contend trades will have to be part of the solution and DD is one of the biggest pieces we have. And with Ross there DD is more expendable imo. That being said, it's all relative to what offers are being made. You don't trade Derozan unless it makes us one of the best teams in the EC (long term).
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:56 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Thug,
Saying anything against Derozan will result in bunch of hate, because he is a sacred cow of the Raptors forum. While I don't agree with you that he has to be traded I'm certainly not going to be upset if he is (for the right package). I do think we should see what can we get for him. You have some right ideas but you take many of them to the extremes IMO.
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:41 PM   #59 (permalink)
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That's the beauty of this season since the trade....they don't need anyone to be "The Man". Share the ball and good things will happen.
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Old 03-19-2014, 04:04 PM   #60 (permalink)
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1- I do NOT think he has to go right now, especially considering his contract is very reasonable for someone who carries as much of the offensive load as he does. And, despite the appearnce that his game is inefficient, the team has still managed to be a top 10 offense in the league since trading Rudy. His ability to get to the line and pressure defences is a big part of that (amazing how he does it considering I keep hearing how he has such awful handles...huh).

2- BUT....Thriller does mention some good points. Maybe not now, but going forward, assuming things work out the way we'd like, with JV and Ross reaching their potential and Lowry possibly being re-signed for 4 or 5 years, where are the touches going to come from? At some point, Demar is not going to be needed to handle such a big offensive load. In fact, having him do so could be detrimental to the team, if JV and Ross become more efficient. Will Demar's game drop off if he doesn't have as many touches? Will he still get to the line as much? Because a lot of his value is tied in with him having elite ability to get to the line, that's how he keeps his effciency respectable. If he is just taking 12 mid-range jumpers a game and getting to the line 5 times, instead of 9+ (like the past few months) his value drops considerably, because he's not bringing as much on the defensive end as another wing might bring.

TL;DR: He definitely does NOT have to be moved now, but there are reasons why you might want to move him as early as next season, assuming JV and Ross both improve and a good package was offered. Even a deal for a guy like Afflalo, straight up, might actually make the team better.
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